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To: Last Visible Dog
Do these patterns exist in the mind of man - or do they exist in the outside world independent of the mind of man?

Crystaline patterns existed long before man existed, so I think it's pretty fair to say they exist outside our minds. They can be expressed mathematically, their existence is relevant to numerous physical and biological systems.

256 posted on 10/24/2007 12:16:52 PM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
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To: Alter Kaker
Crystaline patterns existed long before man existed

Absolutely. This is the dilemma. Did crystals aways exist along with the patterns that are followed or did they spring forth from nothingness (both the matter and the pattern)? Both options are illogical and can not be explained by our current science - both options are "it just is"

The characteristics of some non-intelligent matter is amazing - how did order in the form of patterns come to pass within matter that has no facilities to evolve or follow anything. Crystalline patterns "just are" - crystal do not have the facility to "follow" a pattern.

This is my point

Natural Selection, Evolution, crystalline patterns...whatever label or related concept you choose - none of these things have the facilities to DO anything. They are devoid of intellegence or the facilities to follow a pattern - but nevertheless patterns exist. We are left with two opinions:

These patterns sprang forth randomly from randomness (unguided happenstance)

OR

Some force, power, God, bogeyman is or has implemented these patterns.

This is THE foundational philosophic question that we all must grapple with (or ignore)

Some say this is a way to scientifically and logically prove the existence of God...although this conclusion is not my current point.

259 posted on 10/24/2007 12:53:00 PM PDT by Last Visible Dog
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