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To: Diamond
Ever heard of NAMBLA?

Even they don't condone raping children. The Man-Boy Love Association simply has an poor (in terms of our society and our morality) opinion of age of consent. Their mission statement is to "end the oppression of men and boys who have freely chosen mutually consenting relationships." I don't see the condoning of rape, just an incorrect notion of consent.

Of course, go back to Ancient Rome and you'll find a society who does, indeed, accept the practice as moral. With better education and science, we've determined that children are more manipulatable at these ages and any consent may not be completely self-aware.

morality is what society says?

Of course. It's clear that morality changes in time and culture.

Which society?

Your specific morality comes from your society. I still claim that general morality (the basics) are inherent/built-in, and expressed as the golden rule. Violations of the golden rule, like slavery, comes about from society convincing itself a certain clan/race/sex are less than people so that it doesn't apply. I would also argue that this is wrong in the most basic moral sense.

Good luck trying to derive objective morality from normative ethical relativism.

I have no problem with different cultures believing different things. If it works for them, good. If we accept the evolution of memes as the foundation for morality, differences would not only be expected, but required. This conversation started though, with the acknowledgment that human compassion and the golden rule in almost universally accepted by every culture. In that sense, the world society has accepted the golden rule as "objective morality".

there could be no such thing as moral progress and no basis for criticism of another society.

I disagree. Like I said, violation of the basics usually comes from dehumanizing a group. Compassion and the golden rule say this is wrong. The great majority of the world would say this is wrong. Criticism will always come from people, not from "objective morality" or the ether. In the limit of everyone accepting the same premise, that premise becomes "objective".

reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

I agree to the extent that it is clear that many use religion as a moral clutch and without it would be rather lost in what to believe or how to behave. Although fear of eternal retribution may not be the most noble reason for living a moral life... if it works, I'll leave it be. However, I will speak up when the "moral absolutists" twist the meanings of their religious texts to mean things it was at best never intended for and at worst simply incorrect and asking us to violate simple human compassion.
87 posted on 10/08/2007 1:28:59 AM PDT by UndauntedR
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To: UndauntedR
Of course, go back to Ancient Rome and you'll find a society who does, indeed, accept the practice as moral. With better education and science, we've determined that children are more manipulatable at these ages and any consent may not be completely self-aware.

True, but the brute fact of Ancient Rome is mute as to why the practice is immoral. And on your own terms you have no principle with which to condemn it. You stated:

I have no problem with different cultures believing different things. If it works for them, good. If we accept the evolution of memes as the foundation for morality, differences would not only be expected, but required...
If you don't have any problem with different cultures believing different things then you should have no problem with the Romans practice of child rape.

Your specific morality comes from your society. I still claim that general morality (the basics) are inherent/built-in, and expressed as the golden rule. Violations of the golden rule, like slavery, comes about from society convincing itself a certain clan/race/sex are less than people so that it doesn't apply. I would also argue that this is wrong in the most basic moral sense.

If morality is societal convention on what basis do you condemn the Romans for not following the golden rule? If your specific morality comes from your society then Corrie Ten Boom was evil for following the golden rule instead of her societal norms when she risked her own life to hide Jews from the NAZIs.

Cordially,

92 posted on 10/08/2007 10:35:43 AM PDT by Diamond
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