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To: fish hawk; NCSteve
The Founders were NOT libertarians.

They believed in liberty, defined as the freedom to do good.

They never believed that anyone had the right to do wrong.

Modern libertarians don't believe in liberty, rightly defined. They believe in licence.

"Where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is liberty."

The converse of the above verse from the apostle Paul is that where the Spirit of the Lord ISN'T, there is no liberty.

And anyone who thinks sin and wrong-doing is going to be blessed by the Creator Who gave us our rights to life, liberty and private property is smoking something, if you know what I mean...

225 posted on 09/30/2007 7:23:34 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The Pledge For America's Revival" - Alan Keyes 2008 - www.AlanKeyes.com)
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To: EternalVigilance
"The Founders were NOT libertarians.

lib•er•tar•i•an

-n.

1. a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct.

2. a person who maintains the doctrine of free will (distinguished from necessitarian).

—adj.

1. advocating liberty or conforming to principles of liberty.

2. maintaining the doctrine of free will.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." -- Thomas Jefferson

"It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon the supposition he may abuse it." -- George Washington

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -- Patrick Henry

Care to try that one again?

228 posted on 09/30/2007 7:38:04 PM PDT by NCSteve (I am not arguing with you - I am telling you. -- James Whistler)
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To: EternalVigilance
But just in case you still don't get it, let me help you with that:

They believed in liberty, defined as the freedom to do good.

No, they didn't. They quite clearly believed that liberty was the right to do as you will, as long as you do not impinge on the rights of others. Read the second Jefferson quote I supplied.

They never believed that anyone had the right to do wrong.

It depends on what you mean by wrong. Whose definition of wrong? What context of wrong? Jefferson explicitly defines wrong as impinging on the equal rights of others. If you want to define wrong within the confines of Judeo-Christian morality, I can provide you pages of quotes from the founders that expound on the dangers of a national government that imposes such a morality on its members.

Modern libertarians don't believe in liberty, rightly defined. They believe in licence.

That is, of course, completely untrue, mostly because it is a gross generalization. But we weren't talking about modern libertarians. We were talking about the founders, so your statement is without meaning to the discussion.

233 posted on 09/30/2007 7:57:31 PM PDT by NCSteve (I am not arguing with you - I am telling you. -- James Whistler)
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To: EternalVigilance
The Founders were NOT libertarians.

That is obvious, but wallowing in the failures of the founders (e.g. slavery) is more suited to the DUmp than to this forum.

325 posted on 10/01/2007 10:07:50 AM PDT by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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