Posted on 09/29/2007 8:09:04 AM PDT by John Jorsett
Information coming out of Iran indicates that the military there is very dismayed at how ineffective new Russian anti-aircraft systems were during the Israeli September 6th air strike on a Syrian weapons development facility near the Iraqi border. Syria and Iran have both bought billions of dollars worth of the latest Russian anti-aircraft missile systems. Apparently the Israelis were able to blind these systems electronically. Syria isn't saying anything, nor are the Israelis, but Iranian officers are complaining openly that they have been had by the Russians. The Iranians bought Russian equipment based on assurances that the gear would detect and shoot down Israeli warplanes.
Over the Summer Russia delivered the first dozen or so (of 50) Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft systems to Syria. It is believed that some of these systems are going to Iran, if only because Iran is apparently paying for them. Russia made the sale to Syria, despite $13.4 billion still owned for past purchases. Russia forgave most (73 percent) of the old debt, and is taking some of the balance in goods. In return, Syria is able to buy $400 million worth of anti-aircraft systems, mainly the self-propelled Pantsir-S1. This is a mobile system, each vehicle carries radar, two 30mm cannon and twelve Tunguska missiles. The missiles have a twenty kilometer range, the radar a 30 kilometer range. The missile can hit targets at up to 26,000 feet. The 30mm cannon is effective up to 10,000 feet. The vehicle carrying all this weighs 20 tons and has a crew of three.
By selling to Syria, even via the use of an enormous discount, Russia gets another foreign customer for their new anti-aircraft systems. Previously, fifty of these systems had been sold to the United Arab Emirates. Each foreign sales make it easier to sell these systems to other foreign customers. But the poor performance in Syria makes it much more difficult to sell any Russian air defense systems (which have a spotty track record in any event.)
As a practical matter, Syria is too poor to ever pay back the forgiven debt, so forgiving the debt recognizes that reality. However, because Syria has been a client state of Iran for decades, the assertions that Iran put up the money, and will get many of the systems, carry a lot of weight. Iran would most likely use these systems to protect high value targets, like nuclear weapons research facilities. However, if anyone should get photos of these systems in Iran, there would be quite an uproar.
The Iranians fear an Israeli air strike against their nuclear weapons development facilities. It was thought the new Russian missiles and radars would persuade the Israelis to stay away. But now the raid on Syria looks like a dress rehearsal for one a little further east. Since Iranian leaders have openly called for the destruction of Israel, one can't deny the Israelis a little self-defense. Thus the cries and whispers in Iranian military headquarters. A lot of this is leaking on to Farsi language email and message boards. There is much angst and unhappiness.
1COUNTER-MORTER-68 wrote:
LOL,,,Funi Dat,,,;0)
This Strike Story seems to get larger with every news
release,,,last one had the USAF on CAP for the IAF,,,
*********
Well let’s just cut to the chase then...
The reason Syria’s radar didn’t pick up any bogies is beause there weren’t any.
About 1986 I was talking to this huge Bahamian, who claimed he worked at White Sands, designing lasers. When I asked if he designed chemical or FELs he wondered aloud if he should be talking to me.
He also got VERY touchy when the discussion veered towrds the subject of frequency.
According to him, we solved the scale up problems the Russians had had with the lasing cavity/wiggler magnets. The source, collimation and battle mirrors were a fully operational system, though not battle tested.
However, in 1991, after the Scud warhead fell on the Quartermaster barracks (gym) at Dhahran because of the Patriot timing glitch (the new software was aboard a ship that hadn’t been unloaded yet, and the crews were hot-seating the battery, not rebooting revery 8 hours per regs as normal), 6 of 7 additional Scuds fired towards Saudi Arabia “exploded in mid flight”.
Now, everyone knows max range on those old Patriots was 50 miles, 25 miles max effective range, and Saddam’s Scuds were bastardized Scud C’s with a range in excess of 200 miles, so it’s clear that Patriot never engaged those Scuds more than 100 miles out.
That leaves...the same weapon that really destroyed the Syrian nuke plant on 9/6. The Israelis were just a smoke screen, but you have to admire the tenacity of the IDF SOF types who humped those drop tanks up into the Turk mountains to substantiate the illusion...(speaking of which...no, better save that for a post with different tone) just so our battle laser system would remain a secret.
to follow that post up....on the night of this raid (Pacific Coast Time), I heard an RC135 returning to Offutt in very bad weather over the Midwest. One might think they might have been in the area to monitor that Israeli operation.
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070109-F-1014W-080.JPG
mmmmmm,,,Interesting,,,I remember it was tested awhile back.
Carried by a 707 or something...
Thanks for the ping!
Would you buy a used car from this man?
“In return, Syria is able to buy $400 million worth of anti-aircraft systems, mainly the self-propelled Pantsir-S1. This is a mobile system, each vehicle carries radar, two 30mm cannon and twelve Tunguska missiles. The missiles have a twenty kilometer range, the radar a 30 kilometer range. The missile can hit targets at up to 26,000 feet. The 30mm cannon is effective up to 10,000 feet. The vehicle carrying all this weighs 20 tons and has a crew of three.”
Without effective air support, these things are likely to stick out like sore thumbs. Expensive paperweights.
Nice mental meandings but no...
The “first” #1 FIRST thing the Russians would’ve done after coming in and investigating would’ve been to either themselves or through other intel sources announce that the Americans were using lasers on an airborne platform in combat.
Simply put...it would’ve come out by now.
‘Twere tongue in cheek from sentence two, on.
FELs are too big for airplanes, too.
Regardless of big Bahamians, I don’t believe the power scale up problems were solved.
I’m pretty sure that the Israelis lost some planes in the ‘67 war. Perhaps you’re thinking of the early 80s? Furthermore, the Six-Day’s War’s kill ratio is kind of misleading seeing as a whole lot of the Arabs’ air arms got caught on the ground. Even a F-22 can be easily destroyed by a MiG-21 if it’s on the ground.
I wouldn’t dismiss the Russian equipment as junk just yet. Take a look at whose using the equipment. Arab armies haven’t earned high marks for military prowess anytime recently. They aren’t exactly well-trained, high quality soldiers.
Compounding the issue, the Syrians only had a few months to try and gain proficiency with their new Pantsyrs—and we don’t even know if the Pantsyrs were involved.
I don’t know if the Syrians have the S-300, but even if they did, they still didn’t have time to gain a proper understanding as to how to maximize the capabilities of their systems. IIRC, all the other mid to long range SAM systems Syria has are decades old—and the Syrians didn’t do so well with them even in the 80s, why would you expect them to do better now that their equipment is even more outdated.
IMHO, this is just a case of a well equipped, very well trained force smacking a woefully unprepared and poorly/inadequately trained one. If this is the case, it wouldn’t exactly be setting a precedent. Also, we don’t know what air defenses the Syrians had in the region and what their situation is.
An Indian military largely equipped with Soviet/Russian equipment has regularly outperformed a Pakistani force that was largely reliant on Western arms. I think training determines a military’s effectiveness more than equipment.
Finally, remember that this comes from Strategy Page. While I like reading what Dunnigan has to say, he is often flat out wrong or at least not wholly accurate and I take what he says with a big grain of salt.
“I’m sure not ready to call Israel superman, or automatically assume they have first world weaponry. We’ve given them some nice stuff, and they have pieces of some interesting research programs, but IMO, their joint capabilities are not at US standards.”
Not really pertinent to this discussion, but I think the Python-5 beats the AIM-9X hands down. Furthermore, the Izzies have given us the SMAW (basically) and the Litening pod (just what comes to mind). Unlike many of my fellow FReepers, I’m not a ardent fan of Israel, but I sure do think they have a top-notch military. Furthermore, I think their combined arms training has to be pretty good, not to mention their pilots have had a lot more experience and training in combating SAMs and other ground-based targets.
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