Posted on 09/29/2007 8:09:04 AM PDT by John Jorsett
Information coming out of Iran indicates that the military there is very dismayed at how ineffective new Russian anti-aircraft systems were during the Israeli September 6th air strike on a Syrian weapons development facility near the Iraqi border. Syria and Iran have both bought billions of dollars worth of the latest Russian anti-aircraft missile systems. Apparently the Israelis were able to blind these systems electronically. Syria isn't saying anything, nor are the Israelis, but Iranian officers are complaining openly that they have been had by the Russians. The Iranians bought Russian equipment based on assurances that the gear would detect and shoot down Israeli warplanes.
Over the Summer Russia delivered the first dozen or so (of 50) Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft systems to Syria. It is believed that some of these systems are going to Iran, if only because Iran is apparently paying for them. Russia made the sale to Syria, despite $13.4 billion still owned for past purchases. Russia forgave most (73 percent) of the old debt, and is taking some of the balance in goods. In return, Syria is able to buy $400 million worth of anti-aircraft systems, mainly the self-propelled Pantsir-S1. This is a mobile system, each vehicle carries radar, two 30mm cannon and twelve Tunguska missiles. The missiles have a twenty kilometer range, the radar a 30 kilometer range. The missile can hit targets at up to 26,000 feet. The 30mm cannon is effective up to 10,000 feet. The vehicle carrying all this weighs 20 tons and has a crew of three.
By selling to Syria, even via the use of an enormous discount, Russia gets another foreign customer for their new anti-aircraft systems. Previously, fifty of these systems had been sold to the United Arab Emirates. Each foreign sales make it easier to sell these systems to other foreign customers. But the poor performance in Syria makes it much more difficult to sell any Russian air defense systems (which have a spotty track record in any event.)
As a practical matter, Syria is too poor to ever pay back the forgiven debt, so forgiving the debt recognizes that reality. However, because Syria has been a client state of Iran for decades, the assertions that Iran put up the money, and will get many of the systems, carry a lot of weight. Iran would most likely use these systems to protect high value targets, like nuclear weapons research facilities. However, if anyone should get photos of these systems in Iran, there would be quite an uproar.
The Iranians fear an Israeli air strike against their nuclear weapons development facilities. It was thought the new Russian missiles and radars would persuade the Israelis to stay away. But now the raid on Syria looks like a dress rehearsal for one a little further east. Since Iranian leaders have openly called for the destruction of Israel, one can't deny the Israelis a little self-defense. Thus the cries and whispers in Iranian military headquarters. A lot of this is leaking on to Farsi language email and message boards. There is much angst and unhappiness.
Yea, with a 20k, 26,000ft range limit on the SAMs, I was thinking the same thing.
What’s the range on our radar tracking missiles?
The communists didn't understand the most important part of any sale is getting paid.
Did your company get paid, or did those Russian outfits go under owing you money too?
This incident underlines a post I made a few weeks back on the panic over the Russian threat to rearm. Most argued against me. I stand by it.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1883364/posts
Vladimir Putin Rearms his Cold War Military.
$100 billion spread over how many years? The story doesn’t specify but suggests at least a decade. Perhaps equal to one or two years of Pentagon procurement. Absent some sort of quantum-leap breakthrough this only means Russia falls behind the west at a slower rate.
Then there is the issue of Russian quality control and expertise. The old USSR navy was pretty but in hindsight a failure in nearly every significant category other then raw numbers. The Typhoons, the carriers, the battle-cruisers could rarely leave port. The tanks and aircraft were bested on every battlefield when opposed by modern western equipment if unencumbered by suicidal rules of engagement.
It’s not clear the Russian military-industrial complex has improved any. The indications are the opposite. The inability to put the carrier sold to India back in working order as an example.
I think it’s mostly bluff, played against nations the Russians have been successfully bluffing for the last century.
18 posted on 08/19/2007 7:34:17 AM PDT by tlb
Maybe it was deaf.
The name should have been your first clue Abdul. Pantsir as in empty your pantsir.
Comrade Rodentkiller you made a mistake and bought our eastern block version it only works on Warsaw pact mice. Let me interest you in our GreatSatan/Zionist repellent device. It is guaranteed to work ( I hope) Sign here _______________ :>)
I am not sure that some of this wasn’t done deliberately.
The Americans and Israelis are VERY confident in their defense systems.
By having a strategic failure of this kind, it has led both to believe that the Russians (or anyone with Russian military implements) aren’t really that compentent and would be a fairly easy foe to overtake. The Russians are indeed chess masters. I wouldn’t put it past Putin to ship out bogus equipment (without the knowledge of the expendable Syrians) in order to create such an impression with the US and Israeli military. Russia and Iran have many linkages. And, I think they have a large plan than what we see here. Putin has expansion on his mind. But, in order to get there, he has to have the Americans (and the Israelis if the plans include the Middle East which I believe they do) in a continued state of sleep as far as Russia is concerned.
Don’t get cocky. This was to extreme of a failure not to be suspect.
These guys thought that kind of system could shoot down Israeli pilots? The IAF are some of the best in the world at low level ingress over the desert. What do you think they train for? There are darn few other air forces in the mid-east that could go up and tangle with them air-to-air. So a significant portion of their primary training must be ground attack.
The Syrians needed a top-shelf system, excellent placement strategy, superb training, and tactical freedom. Of course, even with that (as others have pointed out) they are still (relatively) fixed emplacements at the mercy of the attacker. So even with all that, the IAF probably would've gotten the mission done, it just would've been costlier.
More. ;-)
Syria and Iran have both bought billions of dollars worth of the latest Russian anti-aircraft missile systems. Apparently the Israelis were able to blind these systems electronically.”
roflmao... roflmao... HAHAHAHA.... HAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
= = =
I think in this case,
the term
GTTM!
is quite appropriate.
GUFFAWS TO THE MAX!
During the 67 was, the Israeli air force took out about 120 mooselimb jets and lost none.
Mooselimb jets were all soviet ones. Guess russian military hardware still is crap.
My dad was a used car salesman for years, and the Russians remind me so much of used car salesmen. They came out recently with that phony picture of them planting a flag on the bottom of the ocean, and come to find out, it was a still from the movie ‘Titanic’, and then they said they had tested the father of all bombs, and I’m sure that’s nonsense too. They’re just in the weapons business, and their products are crap, but they hype hype hype, and catch a 13th century arab sucker every now and again, flush with oil money. Putin should deal 3 card monty on a little table in Saudi Arabia.
"Previously, fifty of these systems had been sold to the United Arab Emirates."
The UAE no doubt gave our technicians full and complete access to them. I would not be shocked if the CIA or DIA actually funded some of the purchase for this specific purpose.
Regardless, we detail disassembled this thing and know all we need to.
Maybe your neighbor’s cat is selling them little tiny earplugs.
Zactly!
And every other nitwit think that Russia is some sort of rekindled threat...or they are clamorning about China...all while the real threat: islam gets a passing glance and dismissive wave.
Instead of giving these worthless systems to Syria, sell them to Venezuela who is awash in cash.
Each foreign sales make it easier to sell these systems to other foreign customers.
The Russian have deviously engineered it so that every technical weapon system that they've created down through the years performed poorly on every battlefield...in order to lull us into overconfidence?
That is an actual possibility that you're considering?
I would say that you're 'thinking' too much...but actually, it would probably be more appropriate to say that you are not 'thinking' enough.
Anyway...thanks for the chuckle. Sort of...
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