Posted on 09/24/2007 6:15:44 AM PDT by Boston Blackie
Two former U.S. Border Patrol agents sentenced to lengthy prison terms for shooting a drug-smuggling suspect have asked a federal appeals court to overturn their convictions, saying they were charged with a nonexistent crime and convicted after the jury was given improper instructions by the trial judge.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
What Sutton says to Bill O'Reilly or the media is not what is most important. And what he has been saying is completely contradictory to what is in the court record. What his prosecutors and the judge stated during court proceedings, that enabled testimony to be excluded from the R&C trial, was that he was given immunity for all his actions that day.
The immunity would NOT COVER a 2nd smuggling of drugs.
I never said it did. We were talking about the 1st smuggling incident.
I’m sorry, I thought we were talking about whether we could charge him for the 2nd incident.
While I disagree technically with the statements regarding the 1st incident, practically speaking once immunity was given there would be no way to prosecute him — of course, there was no way to prosecute him without immunity either. I realise I am disagreeing not with you, but with what you say the transcript reports the judge saying — and given I’m not a lawyer, that puts me in a precarious position.
Oliver North was given use immunity, and the prosecuters tried to convict him anyway, and eventually an appeals court ruled that everything they had was tainted by what the knew from his testimony.
it is my un-professional opinion that this thought process is what leads to the conclusion that he has immunity from prosecution for the first event.
But in any case, I didn’t mean to be dealing with the first event, but the 2nd one. I thought, apparently incorrectly, that the “that day” meant he was immune for anything he did during his trip to testify.
Sorry again.
Wrong on the bullet and the doctors testimony.
Still wrong in saying that Compean said mini-van.
etc.
etc.
etc.
So you apostates that continue to attack those us on the side of the law about being suck ups to Bush, Sutton, Mexico, liberals, whatever, would you please just STFU because I’m getting sick of your immature rants and accusations.
Ah, yes. What an ending. With all of the insults you have thrown out on this thread, I'm amazed your computer didn't explode trying to send this whopper.
So far as I can tell the only evidence he ‘lied’ is if you believe other stories I don’t find credible.
I don’t see how you can say they “independently identified” OAD. The investigation of Cipriano led them to question Jose, so it would have been easy for Cipriano to call up Jose and give him the story.
If they had provably given the same name without communicating, I would agree with you. But there’s no evidence they acted independently.
Others WERE making the argument that the high-speed chase proved he was a danger to others.
On that point, we disagree. But it is a matter of opinion--so we can leave it at that.
Oliver North was given use immunity...
Aldrete-Davila was given more than use immunity, whether by mistake or design is unknown (I have my own suspicions). Read the transcript. There are several discussions among the judge and lawyers on this issue, ultimately ending with Aldrete-Davila taking the 5th (but without being compelled to cooperate and provide the information that was the substance of his immunity agreement).
But in any case, I didn’t mean to be dealing with the first event, but the 2nd one. I thought, apparently incorrectly, that the “that day” meant he was immune for anything he did during his trip to testify.
Seems like an odd interpretation--but, okay.
This testimony is crucial to why the jury voted to convict and why they didn’t believe OVD was armed nor that the officers believed their lives were in danger at any point.
The defense spent a considerable amount of time establishing how dangerous the officers believed the vega area to be. An armed gunmen (as R&C testify they believed OAD to be) could hide in the bushes on the south side and pick off anyone on the north side while staying concealed, it’s what about 100-150 feet across?
Ramos testified that he shot at OAD, that he “dropped” into the bushes and then didn’t see him. They didn’t enter closer because OAD might have been hiding the bushes and could have shot them at any time. The did wait to see if he exited on the Mexico side because that would then tell them the “threat” was over and the area was secure.
So what do R&C do? Did they crouch for cover while waiting to see OAD again? Did they yell out to their fellow agents that OAD was armed, that he had pointed a gun at them and to not cross the ditch and climb to the top of the levee road where they would stick like a cherry on top a white cake? Did they ask for back up in case OAD decided to return and fire back upon the agents that tried to kill him?
No, Compean casually walked up to Ramos (who was 15-20 feet deeper into the vega) and stood there perfectly erect and making themselves the perfect target for the armed and dangerous OAD who they claimed had pointed a weapon at them. They said nothing, called out no alarms and did nothing to provide them any kind of cover against shots that may be fired from the south vega bushes.
Does this sound like the actions of agents who believed OAD was armed and that he posed a mortal threat to them and the other officers enough to try and kill him?
Everything R&C did screamed that OAD was not armed and that he posed no danger. Go on all you want about OAD, how he did another drug run later, how the judge wouldn’t allow this to be entered into the record and how it would have changed the course of the trial, but the fact is R&C were convicted on their own actions, their own testimony, their own lies and their own cover up.
All this hot air about what OAD did or didn’t do is a diversion from the central fact of the case that R&C were convicted by a jury of 12 peers of shooting at and hitting an unarmed suspect, who posed no danger to them or their fellow agents, he ran away from them.
Every time Sutton opens his mouth I catch at least one. They are documented on these threads over the last year. Blatant ones. I'm surprised you haven't seen or heard them.
I don’t see how you can say they “independently identified” OAD.
Simple. Two "independent" identifications, by two separate people. Now, you may want to argue that there was a conspiracy and that they collaborated in some falsehood and dismiss it, but I have seen no evidence to suggest that and normal investigative procedures would usually work to eliminate the possibility of that happening.
Then...
Now some may call it it slip of the tongue, others may call it a Freudian Slip of the tongue, I'll let the readers decide.
Well, I could argue that too. But I saw no one arguing that a high-speed chase was the basis for use of deadly force in and of itself as I seem to be getting from your/BobJ's posts.
What post(s) are you referring to where "Others WERE making the argument"?
Don't get your panties all wadded up in a "gotcha" moment.
Shot--shot at. After the fact, knowing he was shot, it is indeed the same moment.
You see this was another part of the incredulous testimony of R&C. Ramos, not only a sharpshooter but a shooting instructor, takes aim at a target what, a hundred feet or so away? That's about 33 yards. Pistol shooters who work out at ranges will tell you the standard distance for target shooting is 25 yards. For lousy shooters it may be hard to hit the center of the target but for a sharpshooter, they can do it in their sleep.
So Ramos says he takes the shot, OAD immediately drops and disappears into the brush but Ramos says he didn't believe he hit him. Who was he trying to kid? If a guy as good as he is, an officer, decorated, a sharshooter, a pistol instructor, takes that shot and the perp drops you are going to assume you may have hit him.
Yet R&C go on and on about how they didn't believe he was hit yet they take no action to give themselves, or other agents, any kind of cover or protection against an "unhit" armed and dangerous felon.
They just stand there.
Baloney. IMO R&C knew they hit him but not how badly. They waited to see (and hoped) that they'd see OAD exit into Mexico because if they didn't, they were going to have to go out there and collect the body. If they didn't it would eventually be found...with Ramos' bullet in him.
Ouch.
R&C both testified that after Ramos took the shot, they never spoke a word to each other...standing there waiting to see if OAD got into Mexico and all the way back to the levee.
Doesn't pass the smell test. If you were an officer and just shot 15 round at a fleeing suspect, than see another office shoot and the perp dropped, you don't think at least a few words would be exchanged? How much time passed, 5 minutes?
Why didn;t they just admit a mistake and throw themselves on the mercy of the court?
You know, the spent shells he and Ramos never talked about. The ones the other agents and supervisors might see him picking up and start asking questions about.
You know, the ones that Compean claimed he never shot from the top of the levee, because, you know, that would blow away his story about shooting from the bottom of levee after> he struggled with OAD and getting dirt thrown in his eyes.
You know, because if Compean DID shoot from the top of the levee it would prove he shot well before OAD flashed the bright shiny object at him, at the bottom of the levee, after they struggled.
And there goes their entire defense strategy.
BTW - What do you think happend to the shell Ramos used to fell OAD? Ramos claimed he never picked it up but the investigation team spent hours out there combing the area with metal detectors and never found a thing.
Funny how evidence just seemed to keep disappearing from this crime scene. Particularly since OAD was armed and that made it a good shoot.
I think I read that in the previous 15 shooting incidents conducted at this station the Agents were cleared in every one. I wonder why R&C didn’t believe the same thing would happen this time.
Must have been a hunch or something.
Like I said about those panties...
Yet R&C go on and on about how they didn't believe he was hit yet they take no action to give themselves, or other agents, any kind of cover or protection against an "unhit" armed and dangerous felon.
Your story telling continues to digress further and further from the record.
They retreated to the top of the levee where Compeans truck was parked and the other officers were to arrive, keeping their guns drawn and constantly looking back over their shoulders to see if they could locate him. They ultimately did--and he was in Mexico.
No person in their right mind would have gone further south on the vega toward the river without getting some help or an action plan.
Not only did the smuggler smuggle another van load of narcotics into the US after the Ramos and Compean incident, he used a DHS pass to bring it here and the Bush administration is still covering it up going on 2 years after the 2nd smuggling incident.
Up until August, they claimed that it was still under investigation. The longest investigation of this sort in US history. They can't use that lie anymore because the guy who ran the stash house that Davila brought the drugs to has plead guilty. Now all they can do is hide and avoid being asked about it. This is a hundred times worse than Watergate.
Oh, puhleeze! The vega is a vast sandy area. Ever try to find something at the beach?
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