Fear of the FairTax

Townhall.com ^ | September 11, 2007 | Neal Boortz

[Man50D]

Perhaps you’ve noticed lately – it sure hasn’t escaped our attention – that the FairTax proposal (H.R. 25) is really creating quite a stir lately. Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee’s endorsement of the FairTax brought him a second place finish in the Republican Iowa straw poll several weeks ago. No less than six Republican presidential candidates, and one Democrat, endorse the idea, and the GOP’s newest candidate, Fred Thompson, has said that he would sign the bill if it were passed by Congress.

Every single day more and more Americans are becoming familiar with the FairTax and H.R. 25, and they like what they see. They read the book, study the FairTax website and they want to know what they can do to bring this tax reform proposal to fruition. And every single day more and more powerful people inside the Beltway who make their livings off the present tax system become just a bit more concerned.

One of the great surprises since Congressman John Linder, the author of H.R. 25, and I wrote The FairTax Book was the tactic developed by opponents to demonize the proposal. Let’s be clear here. We weren’t surprised that opposition surfaced, we were just surprised at the methodology. After all, Washington is full of very highly-paid individuals who make their living, and a very comfortable one at that, gaming the present tax system.

[xcamel]

Oh..there are plenty of places where it has failed... all those countries that are burdened with an onerous VAT...

[BADROTOFINGER]

My point was that lower taxes, in and of themselves, do not result in lower prices. I believe you have made that point yourself.

When the cost per sale ratio is reduced, businesses will have no choice but to reduce prices, competition insures that. A NRST fosters a more friendly environment for competition and free markets.

Or are you saying that competition doesn’t result in lower prices, as you completely ignored that aspect of my post? Just wondering...JFK

[xcamel]

Lowered cost do not automatically result in lowered prices - no business person in their right mind would ever tell you that - unless they had no intention of staying in business for long. Increased profits is one hell of a motivator to hold out on reductions as long as possible, or hold them by adding greater value. Retailing commodity products is a great example, especially when the margin range is 5-20%.

You sell greater volume, you add greater value, or you sell other product lines with higher margins associated with the commodities. Taxes do not figure into the equation until long after all the other costs have been accounted for. (unless you sell gasoline, then you're screwed from the get-go)

[BADROTOFINGER]

Good points. Would these points merit consideration?

1. A customer base flush with cash (when $20/hr REALLY means 20$/hr).

2. The fair tax affects all business owners across the board, greatly leveling the playing field between businesses of all sizes. Payroll taxes KILL small businesses without the lobbies to carry their water in DC; large businesses have a number of free rides built in.

Also, I read that even those who do not support the fair tax say that prices will go down (sorry, can’t source, read it on this thread) 9%. Anecdotally speaking, with a 30% sales tax, that would result in considerably more money in my pocket. And that doesn’t even include the freedom to pay less in taxes by scaling back my lifestyle to save money for things like retirement, a home, etc.

So, I can make more of my own money, save to get ahead more quickly and easily, and be treated like more of a free person in a supposedly free society by my government, what’s not to like? It looks like a good deal to me...JFK

[yield 2 the right]

The Fair Tax is one of the biggest scams to come out ever.

This vague statement has absolutely zero credibility without and details to back up your claim.

It is 2X tax embedded

IF you bothered to read the bill The Fair Tax Act Of 2007 or visit the Americans For Fair Taxation website you would notice The Fair Tax eliminates embedded taxes by abolishing business to business taxes. Fair Tax FAQ #1.

and you it again at the cashier/on-line....

What the heck does that mean? I suggest you visit those sights above before making any ludicrous and erroneous statements about The Fair Tax.

---

ANYTHING WITH THE WORD “FAIR” IS A SCAM IF THEY USE IT WITH THE WORD “TAX”

[xcamel]

You’d be happy with every day being 30% tax day? Unless you intend to live like a hermet - or like you live in some “turd world country” - it’s exactly what you’d be in for...

[BADROTOFINGER]

Everyday is already higher than a 30% tax day, when it comes to my making money. With the embedded costs it is higher still...JFK

[xcamel]

#4 in the list of "Lies you must believe" to support the fairtax.

Your ability to "make money" is not a function of taxation - it is a function of your worth to society.

[BADROTOFINGER]

No lie. Deductions from my paycheck are greater than 30%. Sorry if my economic truth collides with your fair tax philosphy.

But that is exactly the kind of reality that you are dealing with when talking to people about the fair tax.

My ability to KEEP my own money is a function of taxation, and my ability to use my own money to live and enjoy my life as I see fit is directly and negatively affected by the system of withholding income.

If #4 in the list of lies is accurate, then why do my rates go up as I increase my income? Let’s equate my ability to earn income with, say, my ability to sprint 40 yards for time. Say I get in shape to increase my 40 time, why do I deserve to be forced to carry more weight everytime I run the 40? And how can anyone say that my ability to run that 40 yards ISN’T affected by the extra weight I am forced to carry?

I haven’t read this list of lies you talk about, perhaps you could link it for me, but #4 sounds pretty dishonest to me...JFK

[xcamel]

I think you’d better get out a calculator and check your paycheck again. Unless you make over $200K a year, and if that’s true, what the heck are you complaining about? Are you claiming 0 deductions? are you including things deducted that would not be removes like medical, pension, union dues, and things like that?

[Man50D]

ANYTHING WITH THE WORD “FAIR” IS A SCAM IF THEY USE IT WITH THE WORD “TAX”

You keep making the same statements repeatedly with our offering any solution to the oppressive income tax code. Do you have a solution or do you prefer to do nothing and let the federal government take more of your money? Communists and Socialists love a person like you. Willing to maintain the status quo of one plank of the Communist Manifesto "A heavy progressive or graduated income tax."

[BADROTOFINGER]

Checked it the other day. I get medical bennies, no union, no pension. Though there is a state income tax that I overlooked. But that really isnt the point. Under the fair tax system, I can actually choose when I pay taxes. If I live extravagantly, I pay more. If I do not (which is true) I can pay less and use that money to save for a home, or my retirement or whatever.

As it sits now, I pay through my nose, I pay the compliance costs of everyone I do business with as an end customer, I am surrendering 7.5% of my pay for SS and all that other BS that I will never see, my employer matches that when he could be paying it to me, and so on and so on. Free market economics works, and it works even better when the government isnt throttling it through control which it shouldnt have.

Just my opinion, but I think that the fair tax (if implemented as written; I know, a whole nother arguement) would kickstart our economy like nothing seen in 100 years...JFK

[BADROTOFINGER]

Also, respectfully, I would like to hear you opinions on my arguement that taxes (more accurately, tax policy) affect income. Your point that my income is not a function of taxation is true only in the most restricted sense, but in this discussion, it is more like a dodge of its major subject. My income is greatly affected by taxation and tax policy, as well as my employers ability to grant me raises and the like. The draconian tax policy is so obviously destructive to income in this country that it should be addressed, and not blown off so cavalierly. Again, it is from these grounds that much of the conflict that drives this discussion arises.

I speak only for myself, but I imagine that many would agree with my take on the current tax code. It is a scam, but it is a scam less for money and more for manipulation and control. It may not have started out that way, but thats what it is now, as humans cannot be trusted with that kind of power...JFK

[xcamel]

Remember - you have to be smarter than all the collective wisdom in the whole wide world to challenge the fairtax -- Don't you know it was etched by the finger of God himself on to stone tablets and given to a friggin talkshow host???

[xcamel]

There is no redeeming value in the vast majority of the existing tax code. However, the average person is only on the hook for about 1200 pages of it. A flat tax policy would do what you so dearly long for, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak, and be infinitely less disruptive to society, because it would only be a vast simplification of what people already understand (to a point) and what they already know how to do (also to a point).

Realistically, if this were not the case, we'd all be in jail for tax evasion already.

[BADROTOFINGER]

Im ok with the flat tax. I just like the freedom that the Fair Tax would give also...JFK

[xcamel]

Getting stung hard every time you **need** to buy something isn’t considered “freedom”.

[lewislynn]

When the cost per sale ratio is reduced, businesses will have no choice but to reduce prices, competition insures that.

Factor in imports and all bets are off when it comes to price reductions. The higher cost of imports (including the tax) will drive the domestic prices UP not down.

Price reductions, if any, as a result of equal cost reductions across the boared would be short term. Competition isn't an exact science and lowering prices don't guarantee anything. A race to the bottom is suicide.

If price were the only factor we would only have independent stations and Walmart, we wouldn't have Shell, Chevron, Macy's etc. Once price equilibrium is met, businesses will just have to compete the old fasioned way(s), Fairtax or not.

I have a service business. I see my prices would have to increase at least the amount of the new tax just to stay even.

And most important is, the savings aren't near what everyone trys to pretend they are anyway.

[lewislynn]

Good points. Would these points merit consideration?

1. A customer base flush with cash (when $20/hr REALLY means 20$/hr).

But it doesn't mean $20/hr because he still has to pay tax from it. What it does mean, before reality sets in, is, he thinks he has more money to spend on my product(s) or service(s). <

[BADROTOFINGER]

Im getting stung anyhow. And also, there is the prebate. I dont consider myself a wuss, I think I could take it...JFK