[dirtboy]

The side that fought for self determination lost the second war.

Self-determination for the "right" to hold slaves. Gee, do you think that might just be why they lost? The inherent contradition in such an action? Self-determination for me but not for that slave over there?

[eboyer]

The border states didn’t hold slaves and they stayed neutral until Northern troops were sent south to end the secession.

So yes - the side fighting for self determination lost.

[the OlLine Rebel]

It wasn’t over that.

In which case, you can hold the same argument about the RevWar. They ALL had slaves (including “Yankees”).

BTW, a civil war is just a revolution in which the insurgents lost.