Posted on 08/31/2007 6:16:40 AM PDT by PlainOleAmerican
The first truth we must find is a way to swallow this - we have exactly the government we elected!
Our Republican President has a public approval rating hovering around 30% and our Democrat congress has an approval rating down around 20%. Clearly, we don’t think much of our government, but we elected them and what does that say about us?
(snip)
In my last column titled “Ron Paul—A Liberal-tarian, not a Conservative," I demonstrated how easy it is to attack any politician on his alleged voting record, demonize an entire group on the basis of a few in that group who are willing to use unethical tactics to promote their allegedly ethical candidate, and cause a firestorm of political banter, both pro and con, without ever really getting to the heart of the subject at hand.
Welcome to American politics circa 2007
(Excerpt) Read more at capitolhillcoffeehouse.com ...
No, just a misunderstanding based on your statement of monetary support and how you come across.
Save the nonsense. There’s no similarity to our War in Iraq and World War II, a war in which we fought two major military powers who, when we entered the war, had already conquered a huge portion of the world. Our occupation of both Germany and Japan, two homogeneous and industrial countries, were an obvious necessity if for no other reason than preventing further Soviet advances.
Actually, liberal wasn’t always a dirty word either. But today’s liberals are yesterdays socialists.
Birds of a feather my friend. If it sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck and is supported by other ducks, it is a duck!
Someone also needs to explain the difference between national security threats in 1776 and 2007....
Once again, you demonstrate a clear ignorance of history. The Marshall Plan was created to prevent the creation of another Germany (beaten, broke and bankrupt after WW1) which gave rise to dictators.
Just the same way we are trying to change the broken and bankrupt people of the Middle East to prevent the rise of more Bin Ladens, so did we repair the broken and bankrupt people of Japan and Germany to prevent another Tojo and Hitler.
The parallels are only ignored by those who refuse to offer an alternative plan for dealing with Islamic Fundamentalism.
But then that's intervention. And intervention is a big no-no in Paul's World view. Yet you're justifying it in this instance. Well then, if it was alright to prevent 'further Soviet advances', why is it a wrong approach in preventing 'further Soviet Islamic advances'?
The Islamists attacking us then used sailing ships, today they use airplanes.
Again, your assessment is at best in question.
How many attacks have there been on U.S. soil since taking the fight to the enemy again?
Al Qaeda is so much more effective how again?
As you must know, most of Iraq is now more peaceful than the average US city, which was NOT true before American soldiers arrived.
You’re argument is that our response to 9/11 has angered and emboldened our enemy. No duh.... What response would not have angered and inspired our enemies?
Short of leveling the region from the sky, any response to 9/11 was going to be used by the enemy as a recruiting tool.
This is a very silly argument my good friend!
Thanks...
Paul is not a conservative in the race...
Conservatives seek to conserve, protect and preserve, not withdraw and retreat and wait for the next attack.
Ron Paul supporters contradict themselves consistently and then look at conservatives and criticize inconsistency on issues.
Do you notice that Ron Paul supporters do not have a coherent plan to deal with Islamic Fundamentalism? Oh, some will say "nuke them" and other childish things, but none offer a real alternative plan.
We didn’t think so until Pearl Harbor...
And we didn’t think so now until 9/11...
I absolutely agree there was a slaughter in SE Asia after we left. My problem with the War in Vietnam is it should have been over in six months and not dragged on. IMHO, had we invaded North Vietnam it would have been and there would have been far less regional disruption and slaughter.
I don't agree with Ron Paul on everything, just most things.
I have to leave but I'll check any replies this evening.
“My problem with the War in Vietnam is it should have been over in six months and not dragged on. IMHO”
The same is true of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and parts of Pakistan.
But this is what happens when war is politicized. Nobody should know this better than a Vietnam vet...
Send the TV cameras home and send in the bunker-busters...
That’s what we will do when we get serious about ending the threat to western civilations.
How short-sighted and suicidal a statement!
So, when they use that oil revenue to buy weapons used against our citizens, then what?
Ah, if only that were the extent of it. But it isn't, is it? They not only fight amongst each other, they hold a deeply embedded hatred of the West, our cultural values and our religion. They will never only fight amongst themselves, they will forever turn their weapons against us. The Koran requires it.
So, what do we do, crawl back behind our borders (open ones, I might add) and await the onslaught? Or do we intervene in THEIR World, seeking to change it for the better, and thereby mitigate the threat? Seems pretty clear to me.
Ron Paul does not recognize the existance of a religious component to terrorism, this Islamic Fundamentalism as a threat doesn't exist.
“America has used foreign aid not just to prop up governments, but to maintain our interests abroad. If we are to curtail all such aid, we become just another country among many, and turn over control of events to whomever sees themselves the arbiters. And rest assured, they will be there. And they will not, necessarily, be friendly. What you’re advocating is isolationism, pure and simple, my friend. And in today’s World, that a recipe for disaster.”
Turn over control? I am not sure we need to control other governments and dictate terms to other cultures and societies. I think we run into problems when we do. Using foreign aid to “maintain our interests” often involves propping up regimes and manipulating the foreign policy of other nations by threat of cutting off said aid.
My hero Milton Friedman once spoke of our policy of aid during the cold war. We gave aid to governments and they would disperse it to the people. Governments are political in how they disperse that aid. In this process, we encouraged people in foreign lands to become dependent on a central government. Friedman warned that our foreign policy in this way tended to create governments that more closely resembled the Soviet Model than our own free capitalistic system.
Let’s take agricultural subsidies and foreign aid. We buy up food to support the price for our farmers. We make that food more expensive for ourselves in that process. Then we take all of that excess food and dump it on foreign markets. We call this foreign aid. Now I know that we may have benevolent intentions of feeding the worlds hungry, but we also destroy private markets. What happens to the local farmers when our food gets dumped on their shores? Farmers are often some of the most successful people in the third world. We destroy these entrepreneurs and their markets when we dump the food. If they can’t make money, they will go out of business. Then they will be dependent on the central government for their food. Consider Egypt. The Nile river valley was once considered one of the breadbaskets of the world. Now Egypt can’t even feed its own people without US Aid. It is a welfare state of the United States government.
And what do we get in return for helping Egypt? They hate us. Their farmers hate us because we dump on their markets. Their people don’t like us either even though we feed them. And that aid also helps keep the idiots in their government in power. What in the hell is it all worth?
I do not consider myself an isolationist. I want to open up our markets to everyone and allow free trade to make this world a better place for all involved. I want to engage other countries through trade and free enterprise. I want us to lead by example.
Ron Paul supporters would allow the Arab states to destroy Israel and create another holocaust by cutting off support to our best friend in the region, then "not interfering" when the slaughter begins.
Dang it... If you are going to speak truth like this, you will never get through to libertarians! LOL
You seem aware of the cost of winning. Now, can you guestimate the cost of losing this particular war?”
I hear ya brother. Not acting also has costs. Pulling out to soon could have grave costs. I supported the war from the beginning and I still support winning in Iraq. I think we are winning.
My point is though if we had better information about how much this war would cost it would have influenced our decision making process. I am not saying that we should have done nothing. But we may have looked harder for a more cost effective option.
Consider the opportunity costs. That $500 billion is $500 billion we can’t spend on something else. What if we could have found a way to assassinate Saddam for a tidy $100 million?
What could you do with $500 billion?
What about a Marshall Plan for America. What about 100 new nuclear reactors, and updating the energy grid and other infrastructure. We could have been investing in massive plants to turn Shale into Oil. We could have built a new pipeline through Alaska and starting drilling up there and in the Arctic circle. These are daydreams of mine. Perhaps would could have hit them harder by going after energy independence and taking away their source of funds. But those are just dreams.
We are where we are, and I support victory in Iraq. None of us can go back, and Ron Paul can’t either. We are waist deep in the muck and the only way is to fight our way out or get slaughtered in retreat.
More than anything I wish this war to be a precedent that America will stick to it and win. I want this war to discourage other potential conflicts. I want it to be the last war, because I do not wish to fight again. The only way that has a chance is if we stick to it and win. On the bright side, I think we are winning.
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