Posted on 08/23/2007 5:45:11 PM PDT by Reaganesque
While some have attempted to locate the massacre within a framework of Mormon doctrine, these attempts necessarily ignore the actual events in question. Setting aside any ideological justifications for violence you might find within Mormonism (every ideology has such justifications), there was little such doctrine involved in these killings, and none of the perpetrators appear to have been religiously motivated.*
Now upon jumping down to the asterisk at the end of the article, it reads (and note the part I highlight w/underline):
While there is no reason to think that the settlers relied on actual Mormon doctrines in committing their crimes, it is important to note that the massacre took place at a time in Utah history referred to by historians as the Reformation. The Reformation consisted of attempts by the Church to encourage its membership to greater piety on many aspects of their behavior. Some sermons during this movement even suggested that the unrepentant should be expelled from the Saints’ communities. The generalized atmosphere of hyper-devoutness and suspicion of the unfaithful that pervaded this period could have played a part in the motivations of the massacre’s perpetrators, although that influence, if any, is hard to track and was not specifically referenced by the relevant actors. In short, a generalized feeling of pious fervor could have played some role, but no evidence suggests that any doctrine or exhortation was used as justification.
So, this writer tells us: (1) This occurred during a time called "The Reformation," a period of increased "fervor" and "piousness" which "could have played some role" in the massacre. (2) Now get this, this writer says: "Some sermons during this movement even suggested that the unrepentant should be expelled from the Saints’ communities."
Question: Were not these multiple mass murderers "unrepentant" following the massacre? Pray tell, how many came forth to publicly repent of their dreadful sin of multiple murders? If, as the writer said, "some sermons" during this "reformation" period "suggested that the unrepentant should be expelled from the Saints' communities," why wasn't this followed up on for these unrepentant murderers?
Forget about Brigham Young as territorial governor for the moment. Where was Brigham Young as church "Prophet" in the aftermath of all of this? Where was Young seeking to find the perpetrators filling the pews of the LDS church? I mean, you can't so much as have a Roman Catholic diocese these days place a priest with a history of abuse in another parish without culpability being assigned to that diocese. Why was there no open LDS hierarchical investigation and subsequent ex-communication of Southern Utah Mormons?
Now back to the article: Right in the middle, the author writes:
Yes, there was an ecclesiastical chain of command being followed by Mormons trained to submit to authority, but the underlying motives were quite independent of theology. These were people driven by hatred, paranoia, and fear– of outsiders, of losing another homeland, and of getting caught. In other words, it is much easier to locate the massacre within the tragically commonplace weaknesses of humans generally, than within any strain of Mormon theology...
OK, let's grant the author this premise for a moment. Let's not "locate the massacre...within any strain of Mormon theology."
In fact, let's go further than that. Let's say, these mass murders were so repugnant to Mormon theology (ya gotta know that in MORMON theology, murder is an unforgiveable sin) that both the "Dixie" Mormons in Southern Utah as well as the LDS general authorities in Northern Utah abhorred what happened to the degree that they (a) refused to join in the post-facto conspiracy and cover-up of murder, so they (b)exposed the murderers, right?
(uh, cough, cough, uh, wrong)...OK so this writer, after writing off this original terrorist attack on American soil to simply being the result of "tragically commonplace weaknesses of humans generally"--assuring us that LDS theology had nothing to do with it--OK, how then does this author explain that LDS theology had nothing to do with the failure of key Mormons throughout Utah to "out" the murderers, bring them to justice, and properly distance themselves from these murderers? So we're simply, I suppose, to just write that off as well to the "tragically commonplace weaknesses of humans generally?"
The fact is this: The LDS church, no matter what was communicated between Young and his militia leaders prior to the massacre became obvious co-conspirators post-facto and helped to cover up what occurred.
To summarize, the Mountain Meadows Massacre means almost nothing at all about modern Mormonism...
Oh sure it does, unless you can point me to at least a handful of modern Mormons who have fessed up to being ashamed of having its foremost university named after a man that the school takes so much pride in--a church leader who conspired for almost 20 years to cover up the massacre and despite noted for his strong hand in every other aspect of Utah church and territorial leadership, suddenly became weak-kneed and looked the other way in yielding ecclesiastical accountability despite the fact he instigated a "reformation" where even some lower-level LDS were preaching "sermons during this movement" which "even suggested that the unrepentant should be expelled from the Saints’ communities."
If those sermons were being emitted at the local level, where was the "top of the church chain" by 1858 and years following?
(It also bears noting that the Mormon Church has expressed deep regret over this episode and erected a monument on the site, hoping to bring some comfort to the descendants of the victims.)
Yes, but has the LDS church ever admitted post-murder complicity in covering up for the guilty parties? "Regret" and "repentance" are not the same thing!
“The film feels less like historical drama than a venomous religious tract printed on celluloid.”
The quality of the movie isn’t the problem, it is the subject it brings up. Parley P Pratt, Mitt’s great great grandad, was killed in Arkansas by an irate husband (Parley had stolen his wife and children to be Parley’s 10th out of twelve concubines). Many rightly or wrongly attributed the Mountain Meadows massacre of Arkansan settlers as retribution for Parley the Apostles death in Arkansas.
Will Mitt Romney now condemn his great great grandad/Apostle and the line of polygamists that resulted? I think not.
So, this story will go on and on and on.
“Has anyone ever heard of the “Danites”; also called, “The Avenging Angels” who were sort of a proletarian guard for the Mormon leadership? Has anyone ever heard of “blood atonement”?”
I have a whole bunch of info on the Danites. A lot of Mormons here try to deny Joseph Smith was their instigator, but he was a tinpot general wannabe in the thick of it. Joseph led 200 men on a blood revenge raid to Jackson County that was aborted just previous to Sydney Rigdons Salt Sermon and the creation of the Danites.
This is what you wanted!!
Welcome to Mainstream Christianity!!
Yup, and on another 9/11 date...
Most people didn’t know a whole lot about the MUSLIM faith, either...
I know enough that water is the main need. I always carry at LEAST a gallon on me and more in me starting out.
I’ve got the spring locations noted and my purifying tablets and filters ready.
I’m ALWAYS interested in finding things that are NOT on the ‘tourist’ paths!
AMEN!!
HAve you ever walked up Calf Creek to the waterfall?
It is touigh walking in the soft, sandy places, but WELL worth it to see that water cascading over the 127 foot cliff, and to get into that icy pool and splash around. It's RREALLY tough to leave! ;^)
Today, the ACLU would be all OVER this BARBARIC treatment of the soon to be departed!
I've noticed the name in my guidebooks, but have not been there.
Why... by reading these THREADS!!
It's quite evident from the responses of the LDS organization faithfull, that any website or person that says ANYTHING negative either does it from HATRED of the Mormon faith or else they are lecherous sinners who are fleeing from God; and I know that ANYONE's Granny is NOT like the latter!
--MormonDude(Why can't we all just get along? We ARE Christians, you know.)
Yup - 'pretty' and 'good' in the same sentence about MM IS likely to get you a new keyboard!
But... but...
--MormonDude(I really WANT to be loved!)
Yes.
It's amazing that the folks who find things that are NOT in the LDS' Holy Books, and say they are, would make statements like this!
“I’m sorry CC, I gotta call you on this one, If Isaid since I am a descendent of Govner Boggs, I can definatly say he knew about Joseph Smith’s Martyring by a mob, do you think anyone would give me tha time of day? Fast Coyote, would you accept that as evidece from me? I hope not.”
I wouldn’t be surprised at such a possibility. However, it wasn’t governor Bogg’s who looked the other way at Joseph Smith’s execution (I don’t consider it a martyring, but an exercise of military justice). Smith was lucky to escape execution at Liberty Jail in Missouri for leading the Mormon War. When Smith got to Nauvoo, he had himself ordained king, raised an army of 2000 ex Danites, ran for president, and crushed the opposition press (Nauvoo Expositor) - so he was clearly on a secessionist path and as at Far West threatened a civil war.
It was Illinois Governor Thomas Ford who looked the other way when the mob went and killed Smith at the Carthage jail. Given the circumstances, I would have done the same.
Governor Ford would have been well aware of what had happened in the Mormon War in Missouri, and how most of the Mormon leaders had been sent to jail but either escaped or were released. If the Mormon Legion had reached the Carthage jail first and broken Joseph Smith out, there would have been bloody hell to pay in the form of a civil war, Smith would not have given up peacefully like he did at Far West (he had a six barrel pepperpot pistol smuggled into jail and fired it 6 times, he had planned to escape obviously).
According to one of Smith’s bodyguards, Allen Joseph Stout writes that after Joseph and Hyrum were taken to Carthage and jailed, the Prophet wrote an official order to Jonathan Dunham to bring the Nauvoo Legion to Carthage to save “him from being killed, but Dunham did not let a single man or mortal know that he had received such orders, and we (the Legion) were kept in the city under arms not knowing but all was well, “till the mob came and forced the prison and slew Joseph and Hyrum Smith”.
So I would consider Ford’s looking the other way when the “mob” took off to kill Smith as a form of executive decision akin to ordering a military execution to avoid a civil war. Ford already had the Illinois militia out, but he needed to keep order so he must have tried to put some distance between the mob and the militia and the Legion otherwise Nauvoo would have been completely burned.
So actually I give Bogg’s and Ford high marks for doing what needed to be done. Even Bogg’s extermination order was provoked by Mormon Rigdon’s earlier Danite extermination order, and in the end Bogg’s allowed his commanding general to hold his troops from annihilating Far West and only evict the Mormons, not exterminate. Reed Peck, who you denounce, was apparently (with others) instrumental in convincing the general that it was Smith and the ringleaders (like Parley Pratt, Mitt’s great great grandad) who had duped the Mormons into war, otherwise an extermination might well have occurred.
There are two sides to all this history, not just the “we poor Mormons are always persecuted” side. You know, Far West was as happy as a clam and thriving in the midst of the Gentiles before Joseph Smith and Rigdon hightailed it there (after their Kirtland Bank and Monroe bank Ponzi game fell apart). It was Smith and Rigdon who were poison to Far West, just as Smith became poison to Nauvoo. Smith’s Delusions of Grandeur are what led to Mormon persecution, not the prejudice against Mormonism.
You, Sir, are on your way to being a prophet!
So, according to this report, ALL the Mormon's were killed here, but that one of the MOB must have recorded this tale; correct?
Ok.
See there; it wasn't your Granny who was a lecher, but her DAD that was!!
He obviously HATED us, 'cause even Auntie can see that!
--MormonDude(I don't hate nobody!)
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