Posted on 08/18/2007 8:35:44 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
Romney wins Illinois GOP straw poll
Fred Thompson in 2nd, Ron Paul in 3rd
By Adriana Colindres, GateHouse News Service
Published: Friday, August 17, 2007 12:01 PM CDT
SPRINGFIELD — An organized effort that included a visit by one of his sons and 10 busloads of supporters helped give former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney a clear win in a first-of-its-kind presidential straw poll conducted by the Republican Party Thursday at the Illinois State Fair.
But despite Romney’s romp, with his 373 votes translating into 40.5 percent in a field of nine candidates, the announcement of the results wasn’t without some excitement and even tension.
The 922 voters put former U.S. Sen. Fred Thompson of Tennessee in second place with 19.96 percent; U.S. Rep. Ron Paul of Texas in third with 18.9 percent; former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani in fourth with 11.6 percent; and U.S. Sen. John McCain of Arizona in fifth with 4.1 percent.
Results for others on the ballot were former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, 3 percent; U.S. Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, 1.1 percent; U.S. Rep. Duncan Hunter of California, 0.65 percent; and U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo of Colorado, 0.3 percent.
Just before state GOP chairman Andy McKenna announced the results from the podium at the Director’s Lawn at the fair, sign-carrying supporters of Paul, who has developed an Internet-driven following, traded chants with the gathered supporters of the ultimate winner.
And shortly after Thursday’s program, Republican Day at the state fair, some state troopers calmed participants in a disagreement spurred by Paul supporters waving their signs behind the heads of Craig Romney and Illinois Romney coordinator Dan Rutherford, a state senator from Chenoa, as TV interviews were being done away from the stage.
Despite the minor disturbance, McKenna and the Romney forces were happy with the event, even though it was less than a tenth the size of the well-known GOP straw poll in Ames, Iowa, that drew more than 14,000 votes and was also won by Romney Aug. 11.
"My dad is very grateful for everything that you guys are doing," Craig Romney, at 26 the youngest of the candidate’s five sons, told the crowd after the announcement.
"He had such great success in Iowa, and it’s starting to translate across the polls nationally," he said later.
Romney had been expected to win the Iowa test after spending a reported $2 million or more to do so.
Rutherford said people seeking to be GOP National Convention delegates or alternates for Romney — and not the Romney presidential campaign — paid for the 10 buses of supporters from places such as Edwardsville, Chicago and Pontiac.
McKenna said no target was set for participation in the poll, but he thinks it helped generate interest in the party, as intended.
"A lot of people here have never been to the state fair before, never been to a Republican event before," McKenna said. "I think it was very successful from that point of view."
As for turnout, he said, "This is just setting a platform we’ll build from."
Unlike in Iowa, there was no cost for people to vote. Electronic voting machines were set up under a tent on the Director’s Lawn. Any Illinoisan could vote, and typically, a bar code from each voter’s driver’s license was scanned as a means of identification.
Illinois House Minority Leader Tom Cross, who spoke at the fair on behalf of Giuliani, discounted the importance of the straw poll before the voting, which went from 11 a.m. to 4 p.m.
"I appreciate the state party taking a shot at doing one," Cross said, adding that no candidates made the trip. "I don’t think the campaigns themselves are putting a lot of stock into it."
But Bob Kjellander, Republican National Committeeman from Illinois and a Romney supporter, said the vote was important.
"I think it was a very significant victory for Mitt Romney because he was not expected to win here," Kjellander said. "The polls have Giuliani ahead (in Illinois), the local congressmen were for McCain. I truly think this was a grass-roots upset."
U.S. Rep. Ray LaHood, R-Peoria, spoke on McCain’s behalf at the fair, while U.S. Rep. John Shimkus, R-Collinsville, also backs the Arizona senator.
John Cox of Chicago, a Republican candidate for president who says he will be in a coming televised debate but has been excluded from those so far this year, attended the fair but wasn’t on the state GOP’s ballot. Inclusion was based on having a 5 percent poll showing, or having been in a national debate.
Cox said he didn’t fight to change the rules this time around.
"I’m an outsider in many ways to the Illinois Republican Party," he said, adding that in "the current state" of the party that "might not be a bad idea.... Anybody who thinks independently or doesn’t depend on government for their career is really not welcome."
Romney didn’t fare as well earlier Thursday in a different test presidential vote. Members of the Illinois Republican County Chairmen’s Association, meeting at the Crowne Plaza, had a secret-ballot poll of their own. Thompson got the most support with 22 votes, followed by 13 for Giuliani, nine for Romney, two for Huckabee, one for Hunter and one for McCain.
J.C. Kowa, chairman of Richland County Republicans and secretary of the chairmen’s group, said 53 or 54 of the state’s GOP county chairman attended the meeting, and the vote was not binding.
We just thought it would be a fun thing to do," said Randy Pollard, Fayette County GOP chairman who heads the statewide group.
The state party’s ballots at the fairgrounds also gauged support for the following five issues: a constitutional amendment to require voter approval for any new state borrowing over $1 billon; a constitutional amendment to allow initiatives where voters could approve new laws; providing parents of school-age children with $1,000-per-child tax credits for educational purposes, including tuition; a change in the Constitution "that would allow for the recall of elected officials, such as Governor Rod Blagojevich, before his or her term expires"; and the calling of a state constitutional convention.
Lance Trover, party spokesman, said the response was more than 80 percent positive to all five questions — with the question about recall of the governor getting 85 percent.
One Paul backer involved in the sign skirmish, Burnal Hansen Jr. of Willowbrook, said he’s for Paul because Paul wants to eliminate the federal income tax.
Republicans also spent the day talking about how they hope to take advantage of the state budget crisis that has come under a Democratic governor and legislature.
"The budget is a huge mess," said LaHood. "The governor is not capable of governing, and I think they’re in a state of malaise. I think our party’s going to soar. I think we’re on our way."
A joint breakfast of the state central committee and the chairmen’s group also featured speeches by three people hoping to face U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., in 2008 — Dr. Steve Sauerberg of Willowbrook; Jim Nalepa of Hinsdale, who has formed an exploratory committee, and Andy Martin of Chicago, who got less than 1 percent of the primary vote for governor in 2006.
IIRC, Eisenhower was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness although he may later have become Presbyterian. I believe that Wilson was a Presbyterian but have no knowledge as to whether he was an "orthodox" member of that faith.
Anyone who supports paleoPaulie for POTUS runs a serious risk of being regarded as a just plain moron like paleoPaulie, no oxy about it.
I really don't think that being a Presbyterian is a demerit except insofar as the Presbyterian Church differs from my own but then Presbyterians might say the same of Catholics (or not as they see fit). Among the more admirable forms of Reformationism, I would regard Westminster Presbyterians. I am not about to become one since I am Catholic and have no reason not to be Catholic and every reason to remain Catholic.
AND, I will repeat that straw polls are meaningless, that conservatives and Republicans will do our voting at our neighborhood polling places and NOT 400 miles away at our utterly inconvenient state capitol area. We will hear what you have to say when we slaughter paleoPaulie in the real intraparty contest here and everywhere. Most of paleoPaulie’s antiwar antAmerican supporters will be voting in their own Demonratic primary and can only pull one ballot here, either GOP or Demonrat. The antiwar antiAmerican Jane Fonda act-alikes will be voting Demonrat ballots when it counts since they are, ummmm, Demonrats.
Robert Moynihan is editor-in-chief of “Inside the Vatican,” a monthly magazine focused on the Holy See.
Interview with the Pope.
And he wants healing personally and socially and geopolitically," Moynihan says. "He was quite opposed to the Iraq war. I spoke with him personally in February of 2003, and the war, as you recall, began in March 2003. And I said, ‘How about the Iraq war?’ And he said, "It would not be just. It’s not a just war.’”
In the weeks and months before the U.S. attacked Iraq, not only the Holy Father, but also one Cardinal and Archbishop after another at the Vatican spoke out against a "preemptive" or "preventive" strike. They declared that the just war theory could not justify such a war. Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran said that such a "war of aggression" is a crime against peace. Archbishop Renato Martino, who used the same words in calling the possible military intervention a "crime against peace that cries out vengeance before God," also criticized the pressure that the most powerful nations exerted on the less powerful ones on the U.N. Security Council to support the war. The Pope spoke out almost every day against war and in support of diplomatic efforts for peace. John Paul II sent his personal representative, Cardinal Pio Laghi, a friend of the Bush family, to remonstrate with the U.S. President before the war began. Pio Laghi said such a war would be illegal and unjust. The message was clear: God is not on your side if you invade Iraq.
Since the question was asked:
To my knowledge, Ronald Reagan was never baptized as a Catholic, even in infancy. I've seen that claim reported, but without any evidentiary confirmation -- I believe that you are thinking of his older brother, Neil Reagan.
While Ronald Reagan was raised in his mother's Disciples of Christ church (not the Church of the Nazarene; that's a different denomination), Ronald Reagan as an adult identified himself as a Presbyterian, and was a Member of Bel Air Presbyterian Church of Los Angeles, California, which he attended from 1963 until his death.
Get over yourself.
2. The day will not dawn when I will ever vote for the libertoonian surrender monkey paleoPaulie or paleoanyone else sharing his demented views and ravings, much less claim that I supported him all along.
Since Dr. Paul's "demented views and ravings" are all strongly based in the principles of our constitutional republic, I can only deduce that you are likewise opposed to those principles. That makes you an enemy of America and all she stands for. Maybe you should consider renouncing your citizenship and moving to whatever fascist hellhole would more perfectly fit your views.
3. The paleopipsqueak should be expelled from Congress, expelled from the United States as the treasonous weasel that he is, and dropped into Tora Bora to be with his Al Qaeda pals.
Blah, blah, blah. You cannot provide a single shred of evidence to support any of that bilious vitriol. It is simply your knee-jerk reaction and venomous spewing.
4. The day will also never dawn when the GOP would EVER nominate such antiwar antiAmerican trash as paleoPaulie for POTUS.
Once again, I submit that it is you who is anti-American and you whose views do not reflect well on your selected party. You think you are confident, but you are merely arrogant. The GOP may not nominate Dr. Paul, but that is its own loss and the country's loss. Either way, rest assured that the outcome will have little or nothing to do with you or your bellicose ranting.
Regardless of the subjective experiences and disappointments of their youth, the antiwar reflex of both popes is not historically consistent with Church history. Lepanto, lifting the Siege of Vienna, Ferdinand and Isabella creating Catholic Spain on the ashes of IslamoSpain and the Crusades themselves (ask Osama bin Laden) were successful exercises of Catholic military power against the Islamic enemy.
Renato Cardinal Martino is a notorious Euroweenie and viciously antiAmerican stooge. He should find a new line of work like commissar or imam. If you want America to become what Euroweenie Europe has already become or, worse, what it has yet to come, them by all means join paleopeacecreeps in buttsmooching Al Qaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, and the rest of our civilizational enemies.
If that Eastern Orthodox alternative is not chosen, then I would hope that the person stays within Christianity as close to Catholicism doctrinally as can be achieved and still Christian. Christ recognizes such venues and people as part of His flock. Who am I to disagree with Him?
My preferences command no one. If we wind up meeting in heaven some day, that will be a victory for both of us and God's judgment cannot be wrong. I may have in mind a cartoon version of predestination but I would never accept that as God's truth. Others are certainly free to believe such things and God will judge.
I think that Ed Morris's biography of Reagan (which concededly according to the author himself contains some fictions) contains the details on Reagan's baptism. See last paragraph below}. I have the book but it is not handy. I will try to remember to find it and cite the page number and the details. If I am wrong, I am wrong. There are stories around rural NW Illinois where I live that Reagan was baptized at St. Mary's Church in Dixon but I am not convinced those stories are accurate as to location. His family did live in Dixon but they were evicted from numerous homes in numerous northern Illinois towns.
It appears that Nell Reagan was never Catholic that RR's brother Neil "Moon" Reagan was verrrrrry Catholic, that RR's ex-wife Jane Wyman has become Catholic in her old age, that Nancy never was and will never be Catholic, that Ronald, Jr., is unlikely to be a believer much less a Catholic and Patty Reagan likewise. Michael Reagan is a strong Evangelical Christian. Maureen Reagan was not known for religion in youth, was originally a Bircher type of conservative, then fell in love with abortion and became a feminist reviled by her uncle Neil in public when she ran for the US Senate. Late in life Maureen developed skin cancer and embraced Catholicism during her last year before dying of that metastasized skin cancer. I would be interested in any information or sources you may provide whether in agreement or not.
That I emphatically despise Ron Paul does not mean that I despise his supporters whatever I may lead you to believe. As I told a young man at Church this morning who had adapted some Truther views, I am adamant in my own beliefs and prefer that others be adamant as well even when they disagree.
I have dragged my aged bones to the upper floor of the house to find the Edmund Morris biography "Dutch" [NYC: Random House, 1999] page 12, which suggests that Ronald Reagan was NOT baptized Catholic, but that his father was active in the Knights of Columbus and as finance chairman of St. Mary's Catholic Church in Tampico (page 13), that Nelle Clyde Wilson Reagan was baptized as an adult in 1910 as a Disciple of Christ and that was two years after John Neil Reagan, her firstborn, was baptized Catholic. After her own baptism, she believed that baptism should occur not in infancy but in adulthood and, by the time Ronald was born in February, 1911, Jack had lapsed as a Catholic and agreed to have Ronald make his own decision when the time came (page 18). If I obtain any confirmation that Reagan was nonetheless baptized Catholic, I will try to remember to pass it along to you.
Absolutely. I'm aware of that.
Unhappily, however, Ronald's Catholic father scarcely undertook his own obligations to his Church and Family; and -- after the birth of Neil Reagan -- I have seen no evidence that Reagan's Protestant mother took it upon herself to "pick up his slack" on Rome's behalf, so to speak.
Both Neil Reagan and Ronald Reagan were baptized Catholic.
Of THAT, I am not so sure. As far as I am aware, Ronald's older brother Neil Reagan was both baptized Roman Catholic and recommitted/re-confirmed himself to the Roman Catholic church as an adult, also. From all evidence I have seen, neither is true of his younger brother Ronald Reagan.
I hasten to add that this is largely an academic question for me -- Presbyterians do respect both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox baptisms as being Valid Christian Baptisms, not requiring "rebaptism" of any sort if a Romanist or Orthodox converts to Presbyterianism or vice versa, while we wholly reject Mormon pseudo-"baptism" as being Pagan effrontery. I don't know whether or not Presbyterian Baptisms are similarly respected in the Roman Church, but I do know that we Presbyterians do accept Roman Baptisms as being Valid.
So it's pretty much an academic biographical question; but one for which I have not ever seen any actual evidence supporting the claim that Ronald was, at any time, baptized Catholic.
Jack Reagan's failure to support her justified her in her mind in bringing Ronald thereafter only to her church, whether that was the Church of the Nazarene, the Disciples of Christ or some other "Holiness" Church. To Catholics of my generation, the divisions of Christianity were Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant generally. I understand that there are differences between and among Protestants but, with all due respect, those theological differences among Protestants are not very important to us and are none of our Catholic business.
I understand your confusion, but there are differences.
(Incidentally, for example, the "Disciples of Christ" denomination to which Nelle Reagan belonged is not a "Holiness" Church at all, although the Nazarenes are.... "Holiness" Churches emphasize Faith Healing, Snake-handling, Speaking in Tongues, that sort of thing; whereas the Disciples of Christ are an older "Pietist" Denomination emphasizing Abstinence from Vice -- don't drink, don't dance, don't smoke, don't chew, and don't go out with girls who do, that sort of thing.
For that matter, while Nelle Reagan's Pietist "Disciples of Christ" denomination is about a Century older than the "Holiness" Nazarenes, neither denomination is representative of what I would call "Magisterial Protestantism" -- Lutherans, continental Calvinists and Orthodox Presbyterians, "Old School" Baptists... the 16th-Century "old guard" of Protestantism who have been known to drink a beer, smoke a cigar, dance a jig [albeit perhaps poorly], quote Saint Augustine and maybe even Aquinas in their Sunday sermons, and believe that juggling rattlesnakes is just plain damn silly.)
I have dragged my aged bones to the upper floor of the house to find the Edmund Morris biography "Dutch" [NYC: Random House, 1999] page 12, which suggests that Ronald Reagan was NOT baptized Catholic, but that his father was active in the Knights of Columbus and as finance chairman of St. Mary's Catholic Church in Tampico (page 13), that Nelle Clyde Wilson Reagan was baptized as an adult in 1910 as a Disciple of Christ and that was two years after John Neil Reagan, her firstborn, was baptized Catholic. After her own baptism, she believed that baptism should occur not in infancy but in adulthood and, by the time Ronald was born in February, 1911, Jack had lapsed as a Catholic and agreed to have Ronald make his own decision when the time came (page 18). If I obtain any confirmation that Reagan was nonetheless baptized Catholic, I will try to remember to pass it along to you.
This confirms my own understanding of the facts, as much as I am aware.
I suspect, though of course I have no proof and I do not wish to speak ill of the dead, that Jack Reagan had largely abdicated his Church and Family responsibilities by the time that Neil Reagan was born, and that Nelle consented to the Catholic Baptism of Neil out of desire to respect her Husband, obey her Oath, and to secure Family Peace. I suspect that by the time Ronald was born, Jack Reagan was so far gone from obeying his Christian duties to Church and Family, that Nelle felt little further motivation to adhere to Catholic Oaths on his behalf. Just biographical speculation on my part, but it seems to fit the evidence.
Thus, Neil Reagan was Baptized Catholic and indeed recommitted/re-confirmed himself to the Roman Catholic church as an adult; whereas his younger brother Ronald Reagan was never baptized Catholic, was raised in the "Disciples of Christ" denomination in childhood, and covenanted himself to conservative Presbyterianism as an adult.
These are the facts as I understand them. I am open to correction.
Best, OP
You're engaging in a pure "Shoot the Messenger" Logical Fallacy here, Black Elk.
I could, I suppose, "defend the messenger" by pointing out that Abortion is the very sacrament of the Left, the Flesh and Blood crux of their religion, and that "Catholic Worker" has not similarly fallen under that spell -- at least remaining True to the "100% Pro-Life Ethic"....
But that's not even really necessary. "Catholic Worker" is not herein fronting their own opinion; they're simply QUOTING the Pastoral Teachings of the "Supreme Pontiff", the "Chief Shepherd of all Shepherds", the "Hierarch of Hierarchs", the very "Vicar of Jesus Christ on Earth" -- Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.
"Catholic Worker" doesn't even need to supply it's own "analysis"; it merely has to QUOTE the holy Fathers in question.
Has the Council of Cardinals made a grievous MISTAKE? Indeed, two grievous Mistakes in a row? Is the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Faith less fit to pronounce Pastoral Teaching on matters of Just War than His Holiness, "Black Elk" from Illinois?
Shall we call up Rome and inform them of their Error, so that they may immediately elevate you to the Office of "Successor of the Prince of the Apostles", that you might pronounce your Papal Bull against all those "War-Wimp PaleoPaulies" who dare to AGREE with John Paul II and Benedict XVI on the immorality of the Iraq Occupation?
Surely there must be some kind of mistake.
How else could it be, that the "War-Wimp PaleoPaulies" are wholly in agreement with the Just War teachings of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, whereas Uber-Catholic "Black Elk" is wholly rejecting the Just War teachings of the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church?
You must have been robbed. That's the only possible explanation. Surely only you alone are fit for the Office of Christ's Vicar on Earth.
I think you should demand a recount.
If you think Catholic Worker is simply supportive of the regrettable Cardinal Bernardin's "consistent ethic of life" excuse for doing nothing effective against abortion, you are wrong. Many members are standard issue leftists with a little more personal charity toward the poor. At their group homes, they set extra place settings in case Jesus might stop by in the guise of a poor person.
You are insisting on demonstrating that your ignorance of matters political is matched by your ignorance as to matters Catholic and perhaps beyond. Nonetheless, I choose not to refight the Thirty Years War on a conservative website and thus serve the desire of some to divide actual conservatives. I am not going to allow myself to be baited into uncharitable remarks towards reformed Christians for being reformed Christians just because you insist on behaving badly here in service to the paleosurrendermonkey and in opposition to my, your (in a manner of speaking) and his (in a manner of speaking) country.
There are Catholics ignorant enough to support paleoPaulie and his treason to Western Civilization and our nation. There is nothing about being Protestant that requires (to say the least) that some of you support the paleopantywaist. If you were so interested in heeding the pope you would be an orthodox Catholic. That is apparently not the case. So can the hypocrisy and, as to my Church, mind your own non-Catholic business.
Black Elk is following the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church legislated by John Paul II and which reserves decisions on "just war" to the leaders of nations and not to Church leaders, as such, since the government leaders are conceded to have superior knowledge with which to inform their decisions. Government leaders are not cartoon stick figure Congresssquirts like paleoPaulie who know nothing but people in the administration with actual knowledge rather than the pseudophilosophical peacecreep/fauxAmerican community whether the paleopantywaist poseurs or the Comrade Catholic Worker windtunnel types.
Also, there is a common ignorance that supposes that the papal infallibility as defined as dogma by the First Vatican Council in the 1850s on matters of faith and morals when speaking ex cathedra as successor of Peter applies beyond those narrow limits. For example, when Pope Pius IX defined as dogma that Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, was conceived without the taint of original sin (alone of all her race other than Jesus Himself), that was an exercise of such extraordinary papal infallibility. If the pope says that it will rain next Wednesday, it may well not rain and there is, in either event of rain or non-rain, nothing infallible in papal statements on such subjects. That will also apply to statements on "just war" upon which necessarily Vatican authorities lack knowledge whether the war is an American war against the Islamofascisti or the Hottentots getting it on warwise with the Xhosa. The pope may have personal opinions on whether federal subsidies to the Galveston shrimpin' bidness, the Galveston trolleys or the Galveston buses are legitimate and constitutional expenditures. As a Catholic I need neither to agree nor to disagree with such opinions as a matter of faith.
Looking forward to the absolute destruction of your feckless, spineless paleoPaulie and your minimovement of wimps and treasonous weasels posing as Republicans when the adults do the voting at actual caucuses and primaries as you are not looking forward to that certain result.
I strive here to display respect for reasonably orthodox Christian religions (the Bible-believing ones such as I suppose yours to be), to refrain from belittling good faith differences as to faith, to encourage good relations among people, Christian or not, who are of sincere faith and do not fly airplanes into our major office buildings or our Pentagon (the St. Peter's Basilica of our military). It was not always so since, years ago, I used to foolishly pick fights with those not of my Faith.
If Catholicism does not command your loyalty on its face, then don't be Catholic. We draft no one. If you choose to ignorantly berate the Catholicism (which you manifestly do not begin to understand) of pro-military, pro-war Catholics who are quite free even within the Church to disagree with the POLITICAL opinions of even pontiffs), that is your choice in America.
If we who are Catholic did not enjoy that freedom then you would actually have something to complain about. Paul Blanshard used to accuse us of being nothing but slaves of that wily old foreigner pope. Of course, that you choose to behave in such a fashion as you do says a lot more (none of it positive) about you than it does about the popes, about other Catholics or about me. Part of the genius of America is that no one here gets to force anyone else to worship at all much less as dictated by people of other faiths.
In any event, since you are so cavalier as to the defense of the USA as to support the craven cowardly dimwit of Galveston for POTUS, it is not as though I would be tempted to take you seriously in your opinions of my Faith and its leaders.
See #75
At this point I can honestly say I have no dog in this race and I’m just waiting to see what shakes out. The only thing I know is I will never vote for Rudy.
Sooooo. You don’t like Ron Paul?
Yes. The Roman Catholic Church respects the baptisms of Presbyterians, other Reformed, and any others that are done with proper matter, form, and intent.
The only ones that are not recognized are LDS and a few other sects that lack proper understanding of the Trinitarian nature of God, like Jehova's Witnesses, I think.
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