Fair Tax, Foul Politics [NRO on FairTax]

Fair Tax, Foul Politics ^ | August 16, 2007 | NRO Editors

[ari-freedom]

see post 61. Huckabee supports the fair tax so let’s see...
http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2007/01/a_report_on_mike_huckabees_fis.php
* Immediately upon taking office, Governor Huckabee signed a sales tax hike in 1996 to fund the Games and Fishing Commission and the Department of Parks and Tourism (Cato Policy Analysis No. 315, 09/03/98).
* He supported an internet sales tax in 2001 (Americans for Tax Reform 01/07/07).
* He publicly opposed the repeal of a sales tax on groceries and medicine in 2002 (Arkansas News Bureau 08/30/02).
* He signed bills raising taxes on gasoline (1999), cigarettes (2003) (Americans for Tax Reform 01/07/07), and a $5.25 per day bed-tax on private nursing home patients in 2001 (Arkansas New Bureau 03/01/01).
* He proposed another sales take hike in 2002 to fund education improvements (Arkansas News Bureau 12/05/02).
* He opposed a congressional measure to ban internet taxes in 2003 (Arkansas News Bureau 11/21/03).
* In 2004, he allowed a 17% sales tax increase to become law (The Gurdon Times 03/02/04).

By the end of his ten-year tenure, Governor Huckabee was responsible for a 37% higher sales tax in Arkansas, 16% higher motor fuel taxes, and 103% higher cigarette taxes

[goldstategop]

If people don't acquaint themselves with the tax consequences of their buying habits, they'll make poor decisions. People need to educate themselves. If they let accountants and tax preparers fill out the forms for them, they will never appreciate the true burden of government. It SHOULD be terrifying. So if you faint at the burden under the Fair Tax, then propose a level YOU think is appropriate. And let's go from there!

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[RobFromGa]

So the FairTaxers have dropped the increased purchasing power argument?

Some have but the vast majority still expect 100% of their paycheck and prices remain the same. That's the mantra that has been recited ad nauseum, and a Free Lunch is always a tasty treat!

[Natty Bumppo@frontier.net]

How taxes are collected is not nearly as important as what is the size of the government as a component of Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

For 2006, the United States had a GDP of $13.25 trillion dollars. The Federal government consumed $0.92 trillion (7%) and state and local governments another $1.6 trillion (12%) for total government expenditures of $2.52 trillion (19%).

No matter who collects the tax and how it is collected, 19% of the productivity of every citizen of the United States must be taken away from them every year to feed the beast we call government. Since only about half of the population is productive; that is in the workforce (151 million out of 302 million) at any one time; under any flat tax system with NO exclusions, NO deductions, NO loopholes, and NO avoidance, you have to tax 38% of the productivity of each worker each year.

The moment you allow for “prebates,” “exclusions,” “deductions,” or any other mechanism for avoidance of the tax, you rapidly drive the tax rate on the rest of the productive members of the United States towards 50%.

Bottom Line: Solving the “tax issue” in this country involves taking a chain saw to the Federal, State, and Local budgets of this country. Total government spending in this country needs to be half its current size or less. Defense spending in 2006 was $0.50 trillion (3.7%) of GDP. Interest on the public debt was $0.41 trillion (3.0% of GDP) for a “minimum necessary” size of government of $0.91 trillion (6.7% of GDP).

EVERYTHING ELSE in government spending is a “nice to have” not a “got to have.” (Although I can make a case for outright repudiation of the public debt.) There is no Constitutional requirement for the Departments of Education, Labor, Commerce, or Health and Human Services. Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid are not enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

Less than 2.8% of GDP ($371 million) is available to fund ALL OTHER functions of government at ANY level.

Until the voters are willing to hold their elected representatives to account for a RUTHLESS prioritization of government spending (if it is not absolutely necessary to spend it; it is absolutely necessary NOT to spend it) and make the goring of sacred oxen the number one political and economic activity in the United States, we are not going to improve “the system.”

[goldstategop]

You can't evade a consumption tax. When you spend the money, it becomes income for the government. The only way to avoid the tax is to keep it in the bank or in your investment accounts and let it grow, tax free. Any income you have is never taxed again. The only time you pay a tax is when you buy a good or service. Simple and straight.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[GladesGuru]

“Which shows you why a smart businessman is a better potential presidential candidate than a crowd pleasing huckster like Huckabee.”

Would you vote for a businessman dumb enough to be considered a ‘gun grabber’?

[goldstategop]

I'd love to know of a society where no one has to pay taxes. It has never existed.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[ari-freedom]

sure you can. It’s called paying in cash. The store underreports the cash (off the books) and can charge a lower price because they aren’t paying all the tax they are supposed to.

[GladesGuru]

“No politician is going to throw literally millions of accountants, tax preparers and IRS employees out of work.”

True.

But just how much does Joe Six Pack value accountants, tax preparers and the IRS? Last time I counted, there were more Joe’s than the the three classes of Schoes combined.

[RobFromGa]

One easy way to evade the tax is to make the purchase under the auspices of a business. Since almost everything could be a business expense, plane ticket, meal, hotel room, car payment, gasoline, auto repair, office supplies, etc this is a major loophole.

Another easy way is for people to do services for cash or trade services with each other.

Another way is for retailers of items to simply not report the tax collected and hide the sale. Or to say the item is used, and not charge the tax.

For a 30-50% tax the desire to cheat will be huge and require an intrusive enforcement agency.

[goldstategop]

California relies on its income tax for government revenue. Every year, it keeps bringing in both record revenue and yet, it still spends more than it receives. A state sales tax would be a less volatile and more predictable revenue base for the government. The Fair Tax could be calculated to have the same effect on a national basis. An income tax relies on the earnings of a handful of wealthy people. A Fair Tax relies on what every one spends to determine what the government will receive in a give year.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[Your Nightmare]

This guy loses credibility when he states (Consumption is what we must tax, not production.) The Flat Tax is a consumption tax. Put down the Kool-Aid and try to educate yourself.

[goldstategop]

That brings us back to the value of government. I don't know of any one who thinks government is giving us value today. Then people will say, I'd rather not pay 30% in a sales tax. Make it 15%. And with it, government would shrink accordingly. So the question is really: do you think government is worth that much or isn't it? Either way, the Fair Tax still makes sense, not because its a free lunch but because it forces people to decide how much government we want to support with our spending dollars.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[ari-freedom]

maybe the solution is to have zero tax and people would donate to the govt when they feel confident they will get what they pay for.

[goldstategop]

That's exactly what a consumption tax does! Don't spend the money. Or spend just what you think the government is truly worth. We'd then become citizens rather than passive by-standers. For most of this country's history, we never had big government. The income tax made it all possible.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[lewislynn]

How else will the government come up with the billions of dollars it will need to pay for all these prescriptions?

And that doesn't include the additional 30% tax they'd we'd have to pay.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'd love to know of a society where no one has to pay taxes. It has never existed.

I'd like to know how you'll convince people who already paid taxes on their saved money, that they should pay another 20% (or more) when they spend it.

[goldstategop]

You miss the the point. The Fair Tax doesn't tax INCOME. It taxes CONSUMPTION. You can put the money away in the bank or an investment account and its tax free. As far the government is concerned, it doesn't exist because it doesn't tax income. However, when you do BUY something, then you are taxed - but you are taxed only ONCE.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[Man50D]

A thread that needs some truth injection.

The fact that this article was written and posted shows one very undeniable truth.

My favorite MLB team is the New York Yankees. They are constantly criticized for a multitude of ridiculous and incorrect reasons. Why? They answer is they have been successful for a long time and a considered a threat to those who wish to have the same success. You don't hear people criticizing the Cleveland Indians because they haven't come close to achieving the same amount of success as the Yankees.

The same process is occurring with The Fair Tax. As it's grassroots efforts grow and more politicians jump on the AFFT bandwagon the more desperate Fair Tax foes become. They make a poor attempt to counter attack a legitimate and increasingly successful grassroots campaign with falsehoods and misrepresentations. They sound more ridiculous with each additional cosponsor. These types of articles are a good sign for AFFT and show the increasing weakness of their arguments.

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Fair Tax doesn't tax INCOME. It taxes CONSUMPTION.

Excellent. The money I've saved, after already paying income tax on it, will be taxed, AGAIN, under the FairTax.

but you are taxed only ONCE.

I was already taxed ONCE. Now you want me to pay again? No thanks.