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Fair Tax, Foul Politics [NRO on FairTax]
Fair Tax, Foul Politics ^
| August 16, 2007
| NRO Editors
Posted on 08/16/2007 6:10:39 PM PDT by RobFromGa
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To: GladesGuru
But just how much does Joe Six Pack value accountants, tax preparers and the IRS? A more salient question would be, "How many of the millions accountants, tax preparers and IRS employees would vote for someone who promised him or her he would eliminate his or her job?"
Before you answer, remember how many votes separated the winner of the last two elections.
If I were starting a new country, I would institute a Fair Tax but from a purely political standpoint, talk of a fair tax is a good way to energize your base.
But it ain't gonna happen. Ever.
101
posted on
08/16/2007 7:55:07 PM PDT
by
Texas Eagle
(If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all.)
To: RobFromGa
Yawn. It’s unfortunate that there are pro-IRS people on NRO, let alone FR. And make no mistake - if you’re opposed to the FairTax and haven’t proposed an alternative that eliminates the IRS and direct taxation on income, you are pro-IRS, if only by default.
I can only offer this data point to the pro- income taxers. As a small business owner, I will not vote, support, or donate to any candidate who will not at least commit to signing the FairTax bill as written. Not for dogcatcher, and sure as heck not for President. Add up all the people like me, and pro-IRS candidates are going to run into some trouble next summer.
102
posted on
08/16/2007 7:55:33 PM PDT
by
Turbopilot
(iumop ap!sdn w,I 'aw dlaH)
To: goldstategop
no! it’s my money, I want to spend it on what I want and it has nothing to do with what I think the govt is worth! It’s what I think the product is worth.
And I know with a sales tax you will end up with all these exceptions for all the government’s favored goods and higher rates for unfavored goods. How do I know? Because we already see this with state sales taxes as well as the federal consumption taxes we have including gas, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.
103
posted on
08/16/2007 7:56:37 PM PDT
by
ari-freedom
(I am for traditional moral values, a strong national defense, and free markets.)
To: Toddsterpatriot
There will be NO INCOME tax. There will only be a CONSUMPTION tax. ONE tax, NOT two! Simple and straight.
So yes, you pay NO tax on income. When you choose to spend the money, THEN you do owe tax due.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
104
posted on
08/16/2007 7:56:50 PM PDT
by
goldstategop
(In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
To: ari-freedom
The key is then to eliminate the plethora of sales taxes and UNIFY them. I object to a tax system where you have to pay over and over again. Its only fair to pay once and then your obligation ends there.
I might add if it isn't, its not really a fair tax but a fraud.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
105
posted on
08/16/2007 7:59:24 PM PDT
by
goldstategop
(In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
To: RobFromGa
First, "fair use" excerpts from . . .
Where is the outrage over sky-high taxes, regulatory costs? by Steve Higgins
7/15/07 - New Haven (CT) Register
"Reports last week from two nonprofit groups should serve as a wake-up call to Americans to start agitating for tax reform . . .
"On Monday, the Competitive Enterprise Institute reported that the cost to consumers of complying with federal regulations exceeded $1 trillion in 2006 . . . almost 10 percent of the nation's gross domestic product. It's nearly half the amount of government spending.
"Even more worrisome, the cost of complying with these multitudinous regulations exceeds the amount of individual income tax paid in 2006, about $998 billion, as well as corporate incomes taxes of $277 billion.
"According to the Washington, DC-based advocacy group [ Americans for Tax Reform ], the average American had to work through July 11 this year just to pay all federal, state and local taxes, as well as regulatory costs including workers' compensation and unemployment benefits.
"Congress should take one of two paths: Either cut tax rates and government spending drastically,
or adopt the FairTax, an innovative proposal that would involve abolishing the Internal Revenue Service and its income tax and replacing it with a simple national sales tax."
--(End excerpts)--
. . . The U.S. income tax system and the U.S. economy are inter-related, and are in
DIRE trouble. If we, the citizens of these United States, do not act aggressively to spread
the FairTax plan with family, friends and associates - our "nest eggs" stand to be devastated through a coming economic meltdown (Summary with podcast:
"Laurence J. Kotlikoff on Long-Term Fiscal Problems in the U.S.").
Politicians are putting demogoguery and pandering above responsible governing - and they're able to do it because Americans do NOT understand - at the "get go" -
politicians' / bankers' hunger for ever-increasing shares of the working person's bi-weekly paycheck; Americans do NOT understand the
totality of taxes they pay. The FairTax shines the "light of day" on this, putting
citizens back in charge to forcefully demand spending reductons.
YOU AND I MUST ACT to mobilize public opinion, and get the FairTax enacted, because the signs point to a probable devaluation of the dollar (reissuance of an "Amero" ? - under a U.S.-sovereignty-busting
North American Union ?).
[ NOTE: Does this help clarify your understanding of what's going on globally?
a) Bush's persistence on rewarding illegal immigration?
b) the North American Highway now under construction in Texas (to stream cheap labor into the covertly-planned North American Union marketplace designed to compete with 21st-century China market?
c) the gradual increase in value of the Chinese yuan by China corresponding to China's economic growth? (This will result in the dumping of dollar-denominated debt as its manufacturing economy grows stronger - which guarantees devaluing and ushering-in of the Amero.) ]
Keep in mind, this NAU strategy - supported by the "super-rich" (member-owners of the Fed) - together with their politician buddies who want NOTHING to do with FairTax -
runs contrary to simply making the U.S. a "tax free zone" for business under the FairTax. Politicians and bankers lose power when the U.S. is returned to a "savings-driven economy" from a "debt/interest-driven" economy).
Powerful "elites," members of political and monied-interest "clubs" reaching into the halls of power in Washington, depend on keeping you and me uninformed of their plans. It is up to YOU and ME to ACT - and not live in a state of denial - based on what we now know is clearly happening to our financial futures.
After you consult the Kotlikoff interview (above):
(If you're a member of your State FairTax organization) Contact your state or local
FairTax Director to learn what you can do.
(If you're just learning about the FairTax bill) Join FairTax.org here:
Scrap The CODE, NOW !
106
posted on
08/16/2007 8:00:52 PM PDT
by
ih2005
( http://tinyurl.com/7lssy)
To: goldstategop
There will be NO INCOME tax. There will only be a CONSUMPTION tax.I know. I have money now, that I already paid income tax on. Now, if the FairTax is passed, I'll be taxed when I spend it. Hardly seems fair, does it?
107
posted on
08/16/2007 8:02:25 PM PDT
by
Toddsterpatriot
(Ignorance of the laws of economics is no excuse.)
To: goldstategop
If people don't acquaint themselves with the tax consequences of their buying habits, they'll make poor decisions. People need to educate themselves.
""People need to educate themselves"...by force of the Fairtax?
That sounds a lot like social engineering. What next? An excise tax on the things YOU don't think people need? (The Fairtax bill creates a new excise tax bureau, what do you they will want to do?)
What happened to everyone's take home is increased, prices about the same as now, a government check every month to cover the tax on your "necessities", more money to save, interest rates reduced 25%, easier to save for that new house?...
How would that acquaint them of the tax consequences of their buying habits...or is all that rhetoric just a lie?
108
posted on
08/16/2007 8:03:38 PM PDT
by
lewislynn
(What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in common? Disinformation)
To: RobFromGa
"The FairTax is a double-counting, fraudulent proposal masqerading as tax reform. The supporters commonly mis-represent the truth in order to bring people on board with the FairTax idea. It is hurting the effort at real reform by selling people a Free Lunch pipedream."
Prove it.
I have read the bill, have you? You quite simply do not understand the way HR25 works.
Here is a link for those of you who prefer facts to hyperbole:
HR25 The Fair Tax Decide for yourselves.
109
posted on
08/16/2007 8:06:00 PM PDT
by
teekaycee
(Talk is cheap.)
To: RobFromGa
"The FairTax is a double-counting, fraudulent proposal masqerading as tax reform. The supporters commonly mis-represent the truth in order to bring people on board with the FairTax idea. It is hurting the effort at real reform by selling people a Free Lunch pipedream."
Prove it.
I have read
the bill, have you?
Here is a link for those of you who prefer facts to hyperbole:
HR25 The Fair Tax
Decide for yourselves. Grassroots support for this bill is strong and getting stronger everyday because it is a good idea.
Methinks thou dost protest too much
Deal with it.
110
posted on
08/16/2007 8:06:01 PM PDT
by
teekaycee
(Talk is cheap.)
To: lewislynn
Government IS FORCE. Its not gentle. The sooner people digest that lesson, the sooner they'll understand it produces NOTHING. It only TAKES. A consumption tax makes that brutally clear as day.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
111
posted on
08/16/2007 8:06:22 PM PDT
by
goldstategop
(In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
To: RobFromGa
...and a Free Lunch is always a tasty treat! Until the check arrives.
To: Toddsterpatriot
Your future earnings will never be taxed. So moving to a new tax system involves trade-offs. No one would say its going to be easy, if it happens.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
113
posted on
08/16/2007 8:07:55 PM PDT
by
goldstategop
(In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
To: Your Nightmare
This guy loses credibility when he states (Consumption is what we must tax, not production.)
That's interesting, I've never heard of a production tax...I'm pretty sure you can produce tax free.
114
posted on
08/16/2007 8:08:09 PM PDT
by
lewislynn
(What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in common? Disinformation)
To: goldstategop
Your future earnings will never be taxed. And my present savings will be taxed, AGAIN.
So moving to a new tax system involves trade-offs.
And the AARP will be right behind you, cheering this on. LOL!
115
posted on
08/16/2007 8:10:00 PM PDT
by
Toddsterpatriot
(Ignorance of the laws of economics is no excuse.)
To: RobFromGa
If we assume that businesses get to keep their half of the payroll taxes So, you start right off by assuming the business will take 7.5% back from the employee. That money paid for employee social security, and should be returned to the employee. Suppose government health care comes along, not funded by the business. Would the business have any moral right to stop spending on health insurance and not give the saved money to the employee? The way you account for the employer part of socsec amounts to theft from the employee. If I tell my employer I don't need this or that benefit, it usually ends up increasing my take home pay.
Tax rates are computed against what you want to buy, not the final total. If the total is $100 and the tax is $23, then the tax rate for any other sales tax100 * 23/77 or 29.87%.
There's way too much twisted logic here. The prebate insures that the IRS (or an equivalent agency) will still be poking into everyone's affairs.
116
posted on
08/16/2007 8:11:10 PM PDT
by
slowhandluke
(It's hard work to be cynical enough in this age)
To: expatpat
Bravo Sierra. When he buys something for $100 and pays a 6% state sales tax, he knows he pays a total of $106. Your approach is highly deceptive. And that $100 was already reduced by at LEAST 7.65% or 15.3% if you want to count the DIRECT or COMPLETE FICA withholding.
And that crane worker also probably paid at least 15% in income tax.
So that $100 he has now really started as $128 or $139, depending if you want to count the employer's contribution to FICA or not.
Or, if you're like me and self employed, you get to pay that 15.3% directly...
To me, it seems darn near equal. $130 for the FairTax, and either $128 or $139 for the current system. With a lot less complexity. And it does NOT penalize investment income OR make savings less attractive for companies (allows companies to roll-over cash from year-to-year without penalty, eliminating a lot of the overhead for lease-to-own offers).
I'd support the FairTax completely if it would also do the following:
1. Abolish the IRS and ELIMINATE that portion of spending from the Federal Budget. Do not reallocate the dollars, just cut them. That alone puts a good sized dent in the deficit (about 15% of the current estimated deficit).
2. Eliminate the Prebate. Completely. It's a dumb idea, and would take a lot of work to process.
3. Anything regulated by the FDA - food, drugs, etc - are exempt from the FairTax. Your basic needs - food and medicine - are not taxed.
4. Mortgage payments are exempt from the FairTax. Your mortgage company will not charge the tax.
5. Cut the FairTax rate down to 27%, which would result in a 10% reduction in revenue to the Government. Give them less!
I think you add those small tweaks, and you have a winner. Lower tax rates for everyone once you look at the ACTUAL rate people pay, elimination of one of the biggest, oppressive and most intrusive government agencies out there, and simplify taxation. No form needed, no paperwork/checks sent out to process (and account for) monthly, and no change to the benefits regarding home ownership.
PS: I'm expating to Asia - where are you located?
117
posted on
08/16/2007 8:16:07 PM PDT
by
PugetSoundSoldier
(Tagline: Kinda like a chorus line but without the legs)
To: goldstategop
Then people will say, I'd rather not pay 30% in a sales tax. Make it 15%. And with it, government would shrink accordingly.
Once again. Unless all the rhetoric from the Fairtax crowd is a lie, how would they know? Pull a receipt from the bottom of the bag?
BTW, just eliminating the rebate entitlement alone would reduce the rate about 15% .
118
posted on
08/16/2007 8:17:56 PM PDT
by
lewislynn
(What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in common? Disinformation)
To: goldstategop
...and politicians don't want to give up the power of setting preferred social goals through manipulation of a complex income tax code. Did you know that economics is a social science? It is impossible to separate "social goals" from economics or economics from taxes. A social goal is a social goal supporting the goal doesn't make it any less so.
To: slowhandluke
So, you start right off by assuming the business will take 7.5% back from the employee. For an employee making say $50k gross salary per year, they currently have income tax withheld along with 7.65% of their gross salary as their FICA contribution. In addition to that 7.65%, the employer pays an additional 7.65%, so the cost of the employee to the business is really 107.65% of gross salary PLUS any other fringe benefits.
The FairTaxers for years have promised 100% of gross paychecks to people. I was just clarifying that in this case, the employer half of the FICA COULD be saved by the business if they gave the employee 100% of current gross salary. And this 7.65% savings is just about the entire amount of savings available to the business to reduce prices.
120
posted on
08/16/2007 8:20:17 PM PDT
by
RobFromGa
(FDT/TBD in 2008!)
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