Posted on 08/09/2007 7:12:45 AM PDT by Lennyq
Wow, there’s a clever reply.
Sorry, I have no time to waste on posts that add nothing to the debate or discussion.
How do the chemicals find out where you are?
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Our knowledge of ‘where we are’ is the direct result of electrical / chemical processes in the brain. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
No argument from me. I know there are some really bad conditions. I don’t dispute that. And this woman was one of them, constantly in and out of the hospital until she finally stayed on the meds. All I am saying is I really doubt the number of bi-polar diagnosis that are being made today along with a lot of the other conditions I think conclusions are reached in an all too willing society that believes a pill will ‘cure’ them.
Looking at the math here, I gotta question this stat. 16,000 deaths / 7 = 2285 deaths a year / 12 = 190 a month. I cannot for one moment believe that a medication is responsible for the deaths of over 2,000 people a year.
Would it be considered irrelevant to note that none of the first 14 articles at the website were written by medical professionals?
If you developed symptoms that some might attribute to ‘mental illness’, would you tend to visit a doctor or a lawyer?
There are 4 articles written by drs a little further down the page, 3 of which are decry the overprescription of Ritalin, or the lack of ethics of some psychiatrists, or how the drug companies have corrupted psychiatry. Only 1 article really advances a positive agenda, Douglas C Smith’s article discusses his alternate, family centered, approach. All of which are valid points of contention, but speak little to the efficacy of psychiatric meds.
One can argue the point that involuntary commitments are bad, wrong, whatever, but that certainly does not touch on the notion of whether or not mental illness is ‘real’. Having involuntarily committed my mother twice in the last 10 years, it was either that or she would have turned up dead in an alley somewhere. Her rights were well respected both times.
The agenda of this site seems more legal than medical, and speaking from my own personal experience, I’m likely to pay more attentions to the docs than the lawyers.
I think that Mr. Baughman needs his Risperdal increased....
You make an interesting point but ... why is the first thing that anyone on these threads mention is the “messenger” or author, with absolutely no nod to the content of the article ?
When you read the articles on that website, the lawyer cites numerous doctors and studies. So why do you discount the information before you read it, based solely on the author and not the content ?
In a legal case, a lawyer presents evidence and expert testimony. It seems to me that’s exactly what this guy is doing. Does the fact that the lawyer’s not a doctor invalidate his opening and closing arguments in a malpractice case ?
Re the point of the articles - the entire point is that mental “illnesses” are not illnesses in the physical sense, like diabetes for example; they are a list of behaviors that for whatever reason we do not like or cannot tolerate in a civil society, or we fear for the welfare of the person and frankly, want to impose our or society’s view of the world on them.
You can argue either or both points, but what you consider to be such a person’s “rights” might not be what they would want. It goes back to the argument of “helping” someone against their wishes, which is the point of an involuntary commitment and the arguments for and against it.
You might even regard the drugs as a chemical straitjacket rather than a physical one.
Instead of making a useless comment, why don’t you rebut with something substantive ?
I agree, but if he really was taking all those medications, it seems to me a bit over the top.
I have no knowledge of medicine or psychiatry, but that list of drugs seems like a lot.
YOU might think my comment is useless, but it merely suggests that the author is a whack job. First off-"ADHD Fraud". I agree that the diagnosis is overused, but there are legitimate cases of ADHD. Second, "the “big lie” ad campaign from the psychiatric-pharmaceutical cartel that psychiatric disorders/ and chemical imbalances are actual diseases"; that sounds like a liberal conspiracy theory, ala "Big Tobacco" is out to get us. Third, this article is teeming with misspellings. e.g. Cat après (coniine) (should be Catapres/clonidine), Ellaville (should be Elavil), amitrityline (should be amitriptyline), etc. Fourth-there is no link to this article; where did it come from? It doesn't deserve anything more substantive than the comment I made....
Besides pulling that from your butt, what makes one case of ADHD more "valid" than another, when the diagnostic criteria are the same ? Might that be the fact that ADHD is in the eyes of the beholder, ie subjective ?
the “big lie” ad campaign from the psychiatric-pharmaceutical cartel that psychiatric disorders/ and chemical imbalances are actual diseases"; that sounds like a liberal conspiracy theory
sounds like ? Do you ever wonder what the differences are between neurology and psychiatry ? Or why as soon as someone's behavior is determined to have a physical cause, like Alzheimer's, it's no longer treated by a psychiatrist ? I've asked everyone and done lots of research on this - cite any study or test that locates any psychiatric disorder described in the DSM in a measurable physical cause. Any. One will do. I mean a definitive study that gives specific numbers, like such and such a level of serotonin causes y behavior or disorder. Tell me one, just one, psychiatric diagnosis that is made based on OTHER than behavior. Any one will do. There's a reason why psychiatric drugs have no specific doses, and are prescribed based on "take this and we'll see how it affects your behavior" and adjust the dosage. That's called trial and error, not medicine.
this article is teeming with misspellings
Yeah, that annoys me too but I can read past it to the info contained therein.
-there is no link to this article
You'd need to ask Lennyq, but here's a very short bio of Baughman - not a quack as you can see: Fred A. Baughman, Jr. M.D., is an adult and child neurologist and a Fellow of the American Academy of Neurology. He has discovered and described real diseases. He has testified before Congress, the European Union, and the Parliament of Western Australia that ADHD and all claims that psychiatric diagnoses are diseases, are fraudulent. He has testified in legal cases regarding psychiatry's false claims of "chemical imbalances" and "diseases." He has appeared on national radio and television shows, and has authored over a hundred articles in medical journals and the lay press. He resides in San Diego, California with Annette, his wife of 45 years. He is the author/producer of the video ADHD--Total, 100% Fraud (1998), and is featured in The Drugging of our Children (a Gary Null Production, 2005--a dvd).
When all is said and done, I have only my own personal experience to draw on. I’m not a doctor or a psychiatrist, just a guy with a bipolar mom.
When she is off the meds, she IS a danger to herself and others. Her emotions rule the day, there is no rationality. She is not hyper or excitable, she can be dangerously manic.
When she is on the meds, she is the woman who raised me and my siblings. Eccentric, sure, but what else would one expect from an artist?
You mention that you have done a lot of research on this. Have you read any Dr Kay Redfield Jamison? A pretty highly respected doctor in her own right, and bipolar. To round out your research, IMO, you would do well to read some of her books. It paints a somewhat different picture than the ones you seem drawn to.
I obviously don’t know anything about your personal experiences with mental illness, and I was pretty much a skeptic myself, until my personal encounter with my mom’s bipolar disorder. I hope that you never encounter psychosis up close and personal, it’s not pretty, and it’s real, not something existing only in the minds of those who dislike the behavior (symptoms) of the disorder.
Or it might be that some docs treat ADHD due to parental pressure without considering whether the child fully meets the diagnostic criteria
There's a reason why psychiatric drugs have no specific doses, and are prescribed based on "take this and we'll see how it affects your behavior" and adjust the dosage. That's called trial and error, not medicine.
Oh, so psych is the only field that "adjusts" the dosage? I don't think so; I can name NUMEROUS instances where drugs are "adjusted" based on response. One size does not fit all, and every patient reacts differently to any given drug. Also, psych drugs DO have specific doses (look it up in any drug information book)
He has testified in legal cases regarding psychiatry's false claims of "chemical imbalances" and "diseases." He has appeared on national radio and television shows, and has authored over a hundred articles in medical journals and the lay press
Well, I guess that makes him an expert....
I’ve never read Jamison and will look it up. I’m always interested in new information.
I do not belittle mental problems - I’ve seen them up close and personal myself in a cousin who was a real problem for his family until he finally died of alcohol poisoning, and I know how bad it can be for a family who have other kids who deserve attention and a sensible atmosphere.
My beef is with the dishonesty and manipulation endemic in psychiatry. Psychiatrists want you to think that mental illnesses are biological conditions, and they are not. Again, that’s not to say there are no mental issues, it’s just that they are not from a biological cause.
And yes, maybe psychiatry can help by providing a rational outlet for a disturbed person, but they cannot help when they disguise the nature of the drugs and treatments (like ECT) and lie about their short- and long-term effects.
Sure, there are many cases where dosages of drugs or physical ailments are adjusted - but they are always adjusted based on physical tests. Diabetics test their blood sugar levels before injecting insulin, thyroid patients get blood tests every so many months before their drug dosage is altered, and do on.
You cannot say the same about psychiatric drugs. There are no physical tests performed to see the effect of the drug on a specific area - it’s a reassessment of BEHAVIOR that is done before changing dosages.
And, what makes him an “expert” is the fact that he’s a neurologist, has produced peer-reviewed research on neurological issues, and has yet to find a single place or chemical in the brain that causes mental “illnesses” in all his years of practice. Epilepsy, for example, which used to be considered a mental illness treatable by psychiatrists, is now treated by neurologists because it is specifically a physical illness located in the brain.
LOL
Psychiatrists want you to think that mental illnesses are biological conditions, and they are not. Again, that’s not to say there are no mental issues, it’s just that they are not from a biological cause.
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This is where I think your assessment fails. You recognize that mental ‘issues’ exist, but then claim it is not from a biological cause. If one’s mental states are not a function of one’s biology, what are they a function of? Or, if mental illness is not a biological condition, what kind of condition is it?
If one cannot say for certain what it is, it stretches credibility to the breaking point to suggest that, in this particular case, you know what it is not.
How do you explain titration of Miralax or Milk of Mag in the treatment of constipation. This is oftentimes done without any testing, and is based on SUBJECTIVE data, mainly the patient reporting that they are still constipated. Where is it written that drugs need to be dosed based on OBJECTIVE laboratory testing?
Since Psychiatry is the study/management of problem behaviors, it stands to reason that the criteria for dosing would be based on behavioral response to a particular med.
But we do know what mental issues are. They are, precisely, deviance from social or cultural norms.
Let’s take an example - schizophrenia
The definition from the DSM:
Schizophrenia is characterized by at least 2 of the following symptoms, for at least one month:
* Delusions
* Hallucinations
* Disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
* Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
* Negative symptoms (e.g., a “flattening” of one’s emotions, alogia, avolition; see below)
Tell me - can you physically measure a delusion as to precise physical manifestations either in chemical processes or other biological markers ? How about hallucinations ?
What about “grossly disorganized behavior” ? You know it when you see it, but do you characterize it as a messy room with all items thrown about carelessly or ... what ? [In that case almost every single child in the world has this symptom at one time or another]
You see what I mean ? Maybe mental problems are a function of biology, but to date, no one can point to what biological function is out of whack. Many things have been suggested, there have been and are many ongoing studies, but there is no definitive answer to date on any of the 300+ “disorders” addressed by psychiatry. We hear about “chemical imbalances”, but if you read the studies, they are still in the investigative stages and have no answers as yet.
And that’s the entire point. Will we have answers 10, 20, 30 years from now ? MAybe, but we don’t now, and for psychiatry to claim that they do is a gross order of malpractice.
Plain and simple.
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