Yes, Romney needs to answer questions about his religion

Mitt Romney's own Republican Party has made religion fair game, and Romney will be asked how his faith would affect his policies.

But Mitt Romney is a serious contender in 2008, rich and disciplined, and he's running in an era when presidential candidates are virtually expected to parade their religiosity. This is particularly true in the Republican camp, where religion and politics are now routinely intertwined; indeed, candidate George W. Bush upped the ante in 2000, when he said that his favorite philosopher was Jesus, ''because he changed my life.''

So it's no surprise Romney is facing questions about his lifelong devotion to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the breakaway theology that considers itself humankind's ''one true church.'' He had hoped to stonewall this issue, insisting in a TV interview 18 months ago that ''I'm never going to get into a discussion about my personal beliefs.''

But today word is circulating that Romney will discuss his faith in an autumn speech - and seek to disarm the skeptics much the way John F. Kennedy in 1960 dampened fears that a Catholic president would take orders from Rome.

Romney is dealing with potential hostility, fair or not, on several fronts. Many Christian fundamentalists, particularly southern Baptists, dismiss Mormonism as a cult (thereby imperiling Romney in the GOP primaries, particularly in pivotal South Carolina). Many secular voters are uncomfortable with the church's passion for proselytizing and its superior attitude, particularly its scriptural insistence that all nonbelievers are worshiping ''the church of the devil.'' Pollsters say that at least 30 percent of voters won't back a Mormon.

Romney's biggest problem is that skeptics are simply weirded out. They cannot quite envision having a president who believes that a man named Joseph Smith dug up a book of golden plates, long buried in a hillside, with the help of an angel named Moroni in 1827; that these plates, written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, spelled out the precepts of the true Christian faith; that Smith translated these hieroglyphics by wearing decoder glasses and burying his head in a hat; that Jesus visited North America after the resurrection; that the Garden of Eden was really in Missouri.

Some questions do seem appropriate. First, the Mormon faith puts a high premium on ''faith-promoting'' information, sometimes at the expense of unpleasant facts. As a high-ranking Mormon leader said in a famous 1981 speech, ''Some things that are true are not very useful.'' Would Romney be able to assure swing voters that he would not merely perpetuate the faith-based thinking, and the rejection of empirical reality, that has trapped us in a ruinous war?

Second, since the Mormons consider themselves stewards of ''a quintessentially American faith'' (Romney's words), and since Mormons believe Jesus will return and rule the world from U.S. territory, does this suggest that a President Romney might wave the flag a bit too fervently, at a time when we need to repair our relations around the world? The Mormon faith is heavily rooted in what is commonly called ''American exceptionalism,'' the belief that we are special and we know best. Would Romney govern accordingly, and, if so, would that be a help or a hindrance in the war on terror?

What matters, in other words, is not whether he really thinks Joseph Smith met an angel in 1827. The crucial issue is whether, or how, a devout Mormon would apply his faith on the job in 2009. His supporters have suggested that any such questions are symptoms of religious bigotry, but it is the Republican Party, over the past several decades, that has put religion front and center. They have made Mitt Romney fair game.

Paul, Peter and James all had more extensive language ability in Hebrew and Greek than you or I. When they heard a sentence spoken in those languages, they understood it fully. They instantly knew word meaning, context, language, tense, history they were living in right then, and Jewish background. And yes, Paul had more than a doctorate in Theology. He was a Jew of the Jews and was caught up directly in heaven with Christ, who directly gave him the Gospel (Galatians). I would take that over a common PhD any day of the week. My lowly Master’s Degree is peanuts compared to that.

AND THAT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IS THE POST OF THE YEAR!!!!

AMPU, you should be a Mormon, for you are expounding on the fundamental doctrine of our church. That is, living revelation. The knowledge from God trumps all other knowledge. Joseph Smith was a 14 year old uneducated farm boy when he saw Jesus, standing on the right hand of God, just as Stephen did. His life was permanently altered by that vision. He produced an incredible record when he was in his early 20's, still unschooled. It was so good in fact, that the detractors have to rationalize it by saying a non member, who didn't joint the church until later, Sidney Rigdon. was the real author.

The heavenly knowledge continues... Numerous angels, visits by John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elias, Elijah etc. etc. The restitution of all things is about restoring knowledge.

Numerous saints saw angels, performed miracles, etc. Millions today receive a witness from God that these things are true.

Knowledge from on high trumps all else. This is why these "debates" on FR are pointless. Denying a witness from GOD because someone who has a masters degree in theology or whatever else says you are wrong is just silly. Can you finally see our point of view?

Why do you think Paul was caught up to heaven and heard and saw UNSPEAKABLE things? Unspeakable to whom? Us? Yes, because he was a chosen vessel for knowledge. God works that way, and always has.

All the best!

Oh, and one more thing. This same uneducated farmboy that received knowledge from God, would be hard to duplicate by any master’s degree.

1. You must be 23-24 years of age.

2. You cannot be a college graduate, in fact, you can have only three years of schooling.

3. You must write a book with 239 Chapters, 54 of them about wars, 21 about history, 55 about prophecy, 71 about doctrine, 17 about missionaries, and 21 about the mission of Jesus Christ.

4. Whatever you write must be on the basis of what you now know; no research can be done.

5. You must write a history of an ancient country, such as Tibet, covering a period from 600 BC to 421 AD. Why? Cause you know nothing about Tibet.

6. You must include in your writings the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people, of which no one ever knew existed.

7. Your writings must describe the religious, economic, social, and political cultures and institutions of these two nations.

8. You must weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living.

9. When you start to produce this record, covering a period of over 1,000 years, you must finish it in approximately 80 days.

11. After pauses for sleep and food, if you are dictating to a stenographer you must never ask to have the last paragraph or last sentence read back to you.

12. Your record must be about 522 pages with over 510 word per page. You must add 180 proper nouns to the English language. William Shakespeare only added 20.

13. You must announce that your “smooth narrative” is not fiction, but truth, yes, even that it is a sacred record of history.

14. In fact, your book must fulfill Bible prophecies; even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom given, its purpose and accomplishments (Respectively-Psalms 85:10-11, Isaih 29:11-14, Ezekial 37:18-21, etc.)

15. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, declaring it to be the Word of God.

16. You must include with the record itself, the marvelous promise; “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost” -Mor 3:5

17. Tens and hundreds of thousands must bear record to the world for the next 145 years that they know the record to be true, because they put the “promise” to the test and found it to be true, the truth manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.

18. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, and scholars must subscribe discipleship to the record and its movement even to the point of laying down their own lives for it.

19. Your descriptions of the culture and people in these civilizations of which you will write include, the manner of their written and spoken languages, type of buildings, geographic locations, governmental types, monetary system, types of tools and materials used, and many other facts completely unknown to the rest of the world.

21. Yet, you must not make an absurd, impossible, or contradictory statement.

22. Even so, many of the facts, ideas, and statements given us as truth in your record must be entirely inconsistent, even the direct opposite of the prevailing beliefs of the world where very little is claimed to be known about these civilizations and their 1000 years of history.

23. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care. You must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of all those most eager to prove it a forgery and who are most competent to expose and flaw in it.

24. Through investigation, scientific evidence, and archaeological discoveries for the next 150+ years must verify your claims and prove even the minutest details of your history to be perfectly true, even to the types of roads they built.

25. After 150+ years of analysis, no claim or fact in the book is disproven, but all is vindicated. Other theories and ideas as to its origin, rise, and fall, leaving your claims as the only possible ones.

26. Internal and external prophecies must be confirmed and fulfilled in the next 150 years.

27. Three honest, accreditable witnesses must testify to the whole world that an angel from heaven appeared to them and showed them the ancient records from which you claim your record is translated. These three witnesses must never deny their testimony, not even upon their death bed.

28. You must call out of heaven the voice of the Redeemer to declare to the three witnesses that your record is true and that it is their responsibility to hear the testimony. They must handle and feel the engravings on the plates, and bear record of it. Again, they can never deny their testimony.

29. Eight other witnesses must testify to the world that they saw the ancient records in broad daylight and they that handled them and felt the engravings on the record.

30. The first three and the second eight witnesses must bear their testimony not for profit or gain, but under great personal sacrifice and severe persecution, even to their death.

31. You must find someone to finance your book with the understanding that neither he nor you will ever receive and monetary renumeration from it. You must sell the book at the cost of, or less than the cost of, its production value.

32. You must tell the world that the written record you have translated from was engraven gold plates, even though up until the time you make the claim, no one has ever found anywhere in past history any civilization using gold as a method of keeping records, and not until about 100 years later were any similar engraven gold plates found.

33. Finally, after suffering persecution and revilement for 20 years after you finish the book, you must willingly give your own life for your testimony that the record is from God. All the time you never make a profit or any other type of personal gain save it be your testimony of the work you brought forth.

Answer to the Book of Mormon Challenge ....... most of Nibley's "challenge" is so patently silly that only a fool would undertake it. Take, for example, point 17:

17. Thorough investigation, scientific and historical evidence, and archeological discovery for the next 125 years must verify its claims and prove detail after detail to be true, for many of the details you put in your history are still buried beneath the soil of Tibet.

What utter crap! Kindly point out where any non-LDS journal on ancient America specifically mentions the Book of Mormon as being vindicated. Nibley here is so damned short-sighted that he fails to mention that point after point of the BoM is specifically contradicted by archaeology. In fact, there is not one single archaeological dig anywhere in America that can undeniably be linked to the BoM. This is sophistry taken to the extreme.

Thirdly, the "challenge" is so carefully constructed, that even if someone were to bother to take it up, he/she could still be disqualified on the basis of "too much education". Tell me honestly, K, if I were to undertake the challenge that Nibley described, you would instantly disqualify me, right?

Finally, this is the point that we have been beating to death for years - Nibley's "challenge" could be applied to a dizzying array of Sacred Books, all with equal results. Muslims are very fond of pointing out that Mohammed was barely in his twenties, and functionally illiterate when he produced the Koran, a work which is still regarded as being the pinnacle of Islamic literature.

If Joseph Smith was inspired of God, by Nibley's test, then Mohammed was doubly so. I don't see how you can skirt this point. Basically, what I am saying is that only a Mormon would be impressed by Nibley's challenge. Those of us who are able to think clearly will soon see what a load of horse manure it is.

Curt van den Heuvel

Other links on the same subject:
The time it took to write the Book of Mormon
5 months to write the Book of Mormon
Deconstructing the Book of Mormon Challenge
Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?
Chris-Boy Genius

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