“Simply put, [national interests] is what benefits us as a nation whether it be security, militarily, economically, culturally, etc.”
Try to be a little more specific with regards to the topic at hand - if it helps you could just confine yourself to the Middle East.
“LOL. It depends upon the circumstances in terms of specific actions. Under the Constitution the President is charged to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” Our national interests stem from that basic responsibility of our government. “
LOL. Again, the word “specificity” comes to mind. What do YOU think our national interests are?
“Yes, we really did believe that Saddam was going to invade the Eastern Province as well and seize the Hanma oil fields and the port of Dhahran. There was very little to stop him. Saddam had invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990 with 120,000 troops and 2000 tanks.”
LOL. Who is this “we” you keep referring to here? Were you part of the National Command Authority, SOCOM, CENTCOM, NSA or DIA/CIA? At that stage of the invasion no one knew anything for certain except that Iraqi forces had invaded and occupied Kuwait and had gone no further. Was there any radio traffic, satellite imagery, or human sources on the ground in Kuwait that positively told you that the Iraqis were just taking a brief pause before continuing on to Saudi Arabia? What is your inside scoop here? Of course you would be looking to evacuate personnel in such a case - I am sure that was in your Standard Operating Procedures.
“You seem to believe that Saddam was rational and would not have entered Kuwait if we had not provided him with the signal, mixed, tacit, or otherwise. That just doesn’t make any sense.”
Of course it doesn’t make any sense from your viewpoint. You need to think like a megalomaniac here. I didn’t say he was rational either. It just seems odd that before the actual invasion he chose to ask us about it, however indirectly. I am sure that Mrs. Glaspie didn’t tell him “sure, go for it” but I am also fairly certain she did not tell him that the US would not condone any invasion of a sovereign nation. Saddam didn’t talk to anyone else - just us. It may not fall under your definition of “rational” but it indicates he was thinking about possible repercussions.
“If Saddam was as rational as you posit, why didn’t he leave Kuwait when we made it clear to him in no uncertain terms that we would not allow that takeover to stand? “
Not to make a broad generalization here but once he went in it would be almost impossible for him to save face by leaving. Could you hear Saddam (or anyone else, for that matter) saying essentially, “Oops, my bad, we really didn’t mean to go in like that, terrible mistake and all, we’ll just be on our way, sorry about the mess...”. I don’t think so.
“I find your assertion, Had he [Saddam] known about retaliation for Kuwait he would have stayed home.” to be one of the most ludicrous, laughable statements I have ever read.”
Well I am glad to have given you a good laugh. It’s an opinion, no more or less valid than yours. We can agree to disagree and since we can’t turn back the clock to find out then you may continue to laugh all you want.
“What is it with you Paulistas that wants to blame America for the actions of monster like Saddam? “
Please go back and find where I implied or stated that we are to blame for Saddam’s actions at any point. And what’s with the name calling thing again?
“Sorry, but I am not going to feel guilty or apologetic about our economic success. The entire world benefits from it. I would much rather be the 800 LB gorilla than the 98 LB weakling.”
I did not ask nor did I expect you to feel guilty or apologetic. And being an 800 lb gorilla doesn’t get you everything you want - the current world situation ought to be proof enough of that.
I also realize that Okinawa is part of Japan. There’s still only 10,000 +/- Marines there...
And better minds than ours have thought up all sorts of contingiencies to keep China from invading Taiwan. And of course the Chinese have thought up all sorts of options to minimize the effect of the current US forces arrayed in the immediate vicinity. I believe it will take just a wee bit more than the Seventh Fleet and 10,000 Marines to keep the Chinese at bay. But that’s just an opinion and if want to laugh again...be my guest.
Enjoy your evening... ;-)
In terms of the Middle East, it is in our national interest to have an uninterrupted, free flow of oil from the region to ourselves and the rest of the world. It is also in our national interest to have political stability and peace in the region, preferably with governments that respect human rights, their neighbors, and democratic values. So what do you think our national interests are in the region?
LOL. Who is this “we” you keep referring to here? Were you part of the National Command Authority, SOCOM, CENTCOM, NSA or DIA/CIA?
All of the above. The USG was surprised by the invasion and did not know what Saddam was going to do. The Saudis were also very concerned and relayed those concerns to the USG, both in Riyadh and in Washingotn.
At that stage of the invasion no one knew anything for certain except that Iraqi forces had invaded and occupied Kuwait and had gone no further. Was there any radio traffic, satellite imagery, or human sources on the ground in Kuwait that positively told you that the Iraqis were just taking a brief pause before continuing on to Saudi Arabia? What is your inside scoop here?
In the first few days, no one knew for sure what the Iraqi intentions were. There was concern for our Embassy staff in Kuwait and any American citizens there. We were prepared at the border to assist them, but the Iraqis had pretty much stopped any personnel from leaving the country. Many Kuwaiti government officials and citizens were able to get out thru Saudi Arabia and they were placed in hotels at Saudi expense. The Kuwaiti government in exile set up shop in Taif. We met with them to get information.
Of course you would be looking to evacuate personnel in such a case - I am sure that was in your Standard Operating Procedures
E&E Plan. There were over 25,000 Americans in the Kingdom plus well over 1,000 USG employees and dependents.
It just seems odd that before the actual invasion he chose to ask us about it, however indirectly. I am sure that Mrs. Glaspie didn’t tell him “sure, go for it” but I am also fairly certain she did not tell him that the US would not condone any invasion of a sovereign nation. Saddam didn’t talk to anyone else - just us. It may not fall under your definition of “rational” but it indicates he was thinking about possible repercussions.
You can speculate all you want about his intentions, motives, and what he really said. The bottom line is that the USG did not give him a green light or tacit approval to invade and seize Kuwait. Our reaction to the Iraqi invasion should give you a clue as to what our policy was. You can blame Glaspie or the USG, but the real culprit is Saddam. You just don't mass 120,000 people and 2000 tanks overnight and invade a country. Whether our objections or stronger warnings would have stopped him is just speculation. We do know that he continued to ignore our warnings even after being defeated in the Gulf War.
Not to make a broad generalization here but once he went in it would be almost impossible for him to save face by leaving. Could you hear Saddam (or anyone else, for that matter) saying essentially, “Oops, my bad, we really didn’t mean to go in like that, terrible mistake and all, we’ll just be on our way, sorry about the mess...”. I don’t think so.
Save face? Wouldn't that be preferable to having a large portion of your military wiped out, your infrastructure destroyed, and cities bombed? Saddam had 6 months to withdraw from Kuwait. He could see the huge military buildup occurring across his border. The UN had imposed economic sanctions. Instead, he starts digging miles and miles of trenches on the coast of Kuwait and along the border. He also sets fire to hundreds of Kuwaiti oil wells. I went into Kuwait two days after the end of the war. The Iraqis had looted and plundered the country and the burning oil fields had turned day into night. We made a number of mistakes in that war, including not wiping out the Republican Guard when we had the opportunity to do so.
Please go back and find where I implied or stated that we are to blame for Saddam’s actions at any point. And what’s with the name calling thing again?
Words mean something. You seem to believe that it was our fault that Saddam invaded Kuwait. According to you, we could have stopped it if we had just objected more strongly. Somehow, we gave him the green light to invade. Glaspie, Tutweiler, and Kelly. Those are the possible villains. And after all, once Saddam had invaded, he just couldn't leave because he had to "save face." Blame America. Just by our presence in the region is legitimate reason for people to attack us.
I did not ask nor did I expect you to feel guilty or apologetic. And being an 800 lb gorilla doesn’t get you everything you want - the current world situation ought to be proof enough of that.
When you have the world's largest economy, we have interests around the world. It is not about getting us everything we want. It is about being engaged globally. The US has been a benign, generous giant, the world's lone superpower. Can you imagine a China or Russia filling that role or even a France?
I believe it will take just a wee bit more than the Seventh Fleet and 10,000 Marines to keep the Chinese at bay. But that’s just an opinion and if want to laugh again...be my guest.
What keeps the Chinese at bay and the Russians and other potential enemies is the belief that we will use force to stop them if it comes down to a confrontation where we believe our national interests are at stake. If the Chinese believe that the Seventh Fleet and 10,000 Marines are their only obstacles to seizing Taiwan by force, then they will be making a serious miscalculation.