Mitt unplugged

Politico ^ | August 04, 2007 | Jonathan Martin

[mmanager]

Mitt Romney engaged in a heated discussion about his Mormon faith with a prominent Des Moines talk show host off the air on Thursday morning. The contentious back-and-forth between Romney and WHO's Jan Mickelson began on the air (video link courtesy Breitbart.tv) when the former governor appeared on the popular program that has become a regular stop for GOP presidential hopefuls. But the conversation spilled over to a commercial break and went on after the program ended, where a visibly annoyed Romney spoke in much greater detail about his church's doctrines than he is comfortable doing so in public.

The footage was captured by the station's in-studio camera and posted on its website. But Romney, who is careful to portray a sunny and upbeat public image, clearly did not know he was being recorded. The candidate reveals a private side that is at turns cutting, combative and sarcastic, but most of all agitated at being forced to defend what he and his church stand for.

[Choose Ye This Day]

As I said, I won’t hesistate to support Mitt in the General. He would be light years better than Billary version 2.0

Whom are you leaning toward at this point in the primary?

[greyfoxx39]

a devotee of the Church of Christ named Barak Obama,

I wish that the distinction between the conservative Christian Churches of Christ and the very liberal UCC (United Church of Christ) which Obama claims could be made. There is a world of difference.

[Utah Girl]

From the Old and New Testament:
Malachi 4:4-6
=============
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the Lord:"

"And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

Hebrews 11:39-40
================
"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:"

"God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

I Corint 15:29
--------------
"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

I Peter 3:18-19
===============
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

I Peter 4:6
-----------
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Matthew 16:19
------------
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Saundra Duffy]

“Are you ashamed of the Temple ceremonies??”

Of course not. I love the Temple. Peaceful, sweet and sacred.

On the subject of authority - I remember when I was a Baptist and later a Pentecostal - you know they contradict each other on several points - I never felt secure - it’s awkward to be stuck in the middle of spiritual contradictions. I feel so relieved to know for a surety that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints possesses the authority to run the affairs of the Church, authority bestowed by Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ who visited the young lad Joseph Smith in the sacred grove.

It’s OK if you don’t believe it but I do.

[Saundra Duffy]

“Funny I felt the church I used to belong to also deceived me but I did not make it a life mission to box with them”

I know what you mean.

[Utah Girl]

In the New Testament it talks about the apostles and the members of the church and the temple. This was after Christ was crucified, died, and was resurrected. How about the day of Pentecost in Acts? Acts 2:37-47

37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 5:41-42

41 ¶ And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:12-14

2 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

Luke 24:50-53

50 ¶ And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

From lds.org Authority in the Church
Christian churches regard the question of authority — the divine right to preach, act in the name of God and direct the Lord’s church — in different ways. Some, like the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic churches, emphasize a continuous line of authority from the early apostles. Some who broke away from those churches say they find authority in the inerrancy of the Bible. Others rely heavily on a sense of “calling” to the ministry. Latter-day Saints have a distinctive view of priesthood authority that helps define them.

• The New Testament describes the church established by Jesus Christ as one with structure and form. The apostles were at its head, and as recipients both of ordained authority and revelation, they were charged with guiding the church and keeping its doctrines pure as it expanded throughout the known world.
• The fact that the original church of Jesus Christ would eventually fall into a state of apostasy was foretold by ancient prophets and by the apostles in Christ’s day.
• Although Latter-day Saints believe that divine authority was lost in the ancient church after the death of the apostles and required a restoration by divine intervention, they do not dismiss or diminish the validity of other people’s religious experiences:
  • Much of the true doctrine taught by Jesus Christ is found in churches today.
  • Members of other churches who accept Jesus Christ and try to live by the principles he taught are entitled to divine guidance and inspiration in their lives.
  • Faithful Christians who are not Latter-day Saints still go to heaven, and those who live according to all the truth and light they have will open themselves to further light in the hereafter.
  • Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world is a Christian, regardless of differences in theology.
  • The Bible is a revelation from God, of immense value for the powerful impact it has to change the lives of men and women. It is not diminished by the existence of additional scripture.
• For Latter-day Saints, the restoration of priesthood authority in the first half of the 19th century was a literal act through angelic visitations from those who held the authority anciently. Divine authority was restored to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints through a visitation of the resurrected John the Baptist in 1829 near Harmony (now Oakland), Pennsylvania, and sometime afterwards through the appearance of the resurrected ancient apostles Peter, James and John.
• Today, all members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who hold the priesthood trace their authority directly to these visitations and bestowal of the priesthood of God on Joseph Smith and early leaders of the Church. A person receiving the priesthood today customarily sits while a person who already holds the priesthood stands and places his hands on the recipient’s head and formally confers that authority.
• The “Apostolic Keys” of priesthood authority today — by which is meant the right to direct the Church — are believed to be vested in the modern apostles in the same way that the ancient apostles had the authority to direct the early church.

Continuous line of authority

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism
• http://newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm (see under “VI. Apostolate and Episcopate”)
• http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/orthodoxy.aspx
• http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/

Inerrancy of the Bible

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

Calling to the ministry

• www.albertmohler.com/article_read.php?cid=9

Scriptures foretelling apostasy

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Isaiah 60:2

For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Isaiah 24:5

The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The validity of other people’s religious experiences

• “The inquiry is frequently made of me, ‘Wherein do you differ from others in your religious views?’ In reality and essence we do not differ so far in our religious views, but that we could all drink into one principle of love. One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” Joseph Smith, quoted in History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 2nded. (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1949), 5:499.
• “We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor to criticize you. We have not come here to berate you. … Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good.” President George Albert Smith, quoted in Sharing the Gospel with Others, comp. Preston Nibley (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1948), 12-13; italics added.
• “The line of priesthood authority was broken. But mankind was not left in total darkness or completely without revelation or inspiration. The idea that with the Crucifixion of Christ the heavens were closed and that they opened in the First Vision is not true. The Light of Christ would be everywhere present to attend the children of God; the Holy Ghost would visit seeking souls. The prayers of the righteous would not go unanswered.” Boyd K. Packer, “The Light of Christ,” Ensign, Apr. 2005, 11.
• “Informed Latter-day Saints do not argue that historic Christianity lost all truth or became completely corrupt. The orthodox churches may have lost the ‘fullness’ of the gospel, but they did not lose all of it nor even most of it. Many Evangelicals caricature or overstate the actual LDS view, which is that the orthodox churches are incomplete rather than corrupt. It is their postbiblical creeds that are identified in Joseph Smith’s first vision as an ‘abomination,’ but certainly not their individual members or their members’ biblical beliefs.” Craig L. Blomberg and Stephen E. Robinson, How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997), 61.

[MHGinTN]

I Peter 4:6 speaks of when Jesus went to those in sheol and preached and these could then be judged as if men in the flesh ... and they didn't need a baptism to be judged. But I'm sure someone in Mormonism has taught you that such a verse in Peter--out of the whole Bible--and a verse in ICorinthians 15 are absolutely proof that Mormonism baptism for the dead is essential for the salvation of some who heard not the gospel or heard it and recieved it not during their life in the flesh.

Mormonsim sets Jesus aside and makes your church of Smith fabrications the source of Salvation and righteousness, doing violence to the Salvation of Grace in Christ by faith ONLY in Him. Your church is neither a source of God's righteousness nor of God's Salvation. Jesus is the author and finisher. Joseph Smith was a false prophet, a liar, an adulterer, and he has lead too many astray already. Now is the time to oppose this cult at every opportunity brought to the fore by the candidacy of Mitt Romney, Mormon cult follower extraordinaire.

If you want your church to claim Matt16:19 you'll have to get in line behind at least the Catholic Church which has been around a whole lot longer and accounting for millions and millions of Saved before your false prophet was even born.

[MHGinTN]

The actual Matthew 24:12 - 14 ... you need to correct your drag and paste file:

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

[MHGinTN]

Perhaps you meant Matthew 21:12 - 14

[Utah Girl]

Here is a response to Luke Wilson of Gospel Truths Ministry, who questioned our belief in Baptism for the Dead. To me, it is comforting to know that the billions and billions of people who lived upon the earth and had no opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ are not condemned without a chance.

Salvation for the Dead:

Does Salvation for the Dead Contradict the Bible?
Romans 1:19-20

Wilson claims that the notion that those who died without a knowledge of the gospel need to have the opportunity to hear it is in conflict with the teachings of the Bible. According to Wilson, Romans 1:19-20 shows that, "those who do not have the written word of God are nevertheless without excuse according to Paul, because they have rejected God's revelation of himself through creation and the human conscience" (1995:1). No doubt, the wonders of creation testify to God's existence, but they do not explain the Gospel of Jesus Christ. While it is certainly true that all men and women have a conscience which helps them distinguish between good and evil, they cannot respond to and accept a gospel they have not heard and it is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ that saves. As Paul observed, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14). God is not arbitrary and unjust. Somebody, somewhere, has to teach these people so that they may hear and have the opportunity of accepting or rejecting the gospel message before the judgement.

When one examines Romans 1:19-20 carefully, it becomes clear that Paul is not speaking of those who die in ignorance of the Gospel, but is speaking of the consequences of willfully rejecting the gospel when it is offered. "The wrath of God," says Paul, "is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness." To hold the truth in unrighteousness, they must first have had the truth and then rejected it. "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them (Romans 1:18-19). God always reveals the Gospel through his appointed preachers and messengers. When the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached by the power of God, the conscience or light of Christ within all men and women shows them that what they are hearing is true. If they follow that light, it will lead them to accept the Gospel. If they reject it they will fall back into darkness and sin as Paul tells us (Romans 1:26-32). It is those who have been taught the Gospel who are "without excuse" (Romans 1:20), since even God's creations honor and obey God's power and will, even when man does not. The sin of man lies in knowing the truth and rejecting it anyway, "because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened" (Romans 1:21). Having openly rejected the Gospel message when it was offered, they brought divine judgements upon themselves (Romans 1:32). Those who die in ignorance of the Gospel message without having the opportunity to receive it, however, are another matter entirely.

Latter-day Saints are not the only people who recognize the importance of this issue. Stephen T. Davis, a professor of Philosophy at Claremont College has recently written a cogent defense of the resurrection that many evangelicals should gladly welcome.2 Addressing the issue of those who die in ignorance of the Gospel, Davis states:

Suppose there was a woman named Oohku who lived from 370-320 B.C. in the interior of Borneo. Obviously, she would never have heard of Jesus Christ or the Judeo-Christian God; she would never have been baptized, nor would she ever have made any institutional or psychological commitment to Christ or to the Christian church. She couldn't have done these things; she was simply born in the wrong place and at the wrong time. Could it be right for God to condemn this woman to eternal hell just because she was never able to come to God through Christ? Of course not.3

But how can God's mercy take effect, since salvation is only in the Gospel of Jesus Christ? As a solution, Davis suggests "post-mortem evangelism."4 He argues that a number of New Testament passages support this view including Ephesians 4:8-10; 1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6; and 1 Corinthians 15:29. He notes the early Christian tradition that Christ during the interval between his death and resurrection descended to preach the Gospel to the spirits of the dead. "Despite the scores of interpretations of the difficult texts just cited that have been suggested in the history of Christian thought, this still seems to be a possible and plausible exegesis of 1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:5-6."5 Davis then reasons, "If the gospel was once preached to the dead, perhaps this practice continues. If so, perhaps the ignorant are preached to after death and receive then the chance they never had before to receive Christ and turn to God."6 Hebrews 9:27

This scripture merely states that the judgement follows death. Latter-day Saints do not question that, however it is what happens in-between death and resurrection before the judgement that is the issue in question. Jesus and the apostles understood there was an interval between the time of death and the resurrection.7 Luke 16:19-31

Wilson argues that the story related by Jesus in Luke 16:19-31, "makes clear that there is no opportunity to repent after death" and "excludes the possibility of repentance in the spirit world" (1995:2). Wilson's example, however, is ill-chosen since it does not describe the fate of one who died in ignorance, but the fate of one who sinned against light and knowledge. Unlike those who die in ignorance of the Gospel, the rich man and his family had already known of "Moses and the prophets" (Luke 16:29). These prophets had repeatedly taught Israel to treat the poor with mercy and kindness. Thus he had not died in ignorance of this truth, but had chosen a life of wickedness in spite of the commandments. Now dead, and having sinned against this light of knowledge, he finds himself suffering torment in hell. This example does not apply to those who die in ignorance.

[Utah Girl]

I did, I meant Matthew 21:12-14. Sorry about that....

[MHGinTN]

I would not assert that those who have lived and died without hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ are condemned to Hell. But asserting that Mormonism baptism is the way these can be Saved is heresy I will oppose. A good old fashioned reading of Paul’s letter to the Romans, followed by his letter to the Hebrews will clear up the issue of those who have died, are dying and will die without hearing the Gospel. Additionally, the scenes of whom is in Heaven as Bride, bridesmaids and wirnesses at the wedding of Christ and His bride can be very comforting if you have serious concerns on the issue of those without hearing the Gospel of Grace while on earth.

[higgmeister]

WHO’s this Jan Mickelson jerk!? He wouldn’t let Romney speak. Mickelson talked over the Governor and cut off his statements many times. What a Richard Cranium!

[Utah Girl]

I would like to talk to you later about the wedding of Christ. However, I have a previous commitment. Talk to you later. :)

[MHGinTN]

pax vobiscum

[gondramB]

>>Jehovah witness will not fight in the armed forces. If they had their way and converted everyone, we are rendered defenseless.

This is a totally unBiblical false doctrine because the Jews had to fight Philistines and others for their survive.<<

Are you saying they are not Christian because the do not fight?

If that is what you are saying then I disagree.

[gondramB]

>>You forget that Mormonism believes it is the one and only true church of God based upon the fact that it is headed by a Prophet of God...a mouthpiece and spokesman for God on earth. If the Prophet can be fooled about a salamander letter, that leads to bombings and death, then Houston - se have a problem. Either the Prophet is fallible (which nowandlater admits) or God is fallible (which is impossible.) Now if the Prophet is fallible, then how do we know when he is acting as God’s spokesman and when he is just a man.<<

I didn’t forget that so much as I have not heard that.

I heard the Pope say something similar recently. That doesn’t stop Catholics from being Christians. This tendency to judge other Christians and decide they are not true churches is troubling and I wish Mormons and Catholics and everybody else did not do that - judging other’s faith is really for God.

BTW, how can you judge them as “not true Christians” because they judge others the same way. Aren’t you doing the same thing?

[gondramB]

Thank you for that post - very interesting.

[quadrant]

I tend to accept in part the idea that Mormonism is a cult but only in part, as I tend to define a cult rather strictly. The LDS Church has an institutional structure that allows for the transfer of power after the death of the leader, and it has a mechanism for adjustments to church doctrine.
I consider Mormonism a Christian heresy as it proclaims The Bible and another work as the source of faith. Orthodox (with a small ‘o’) Christianity is centered around the Gospel of Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the Bible and elaborated in the three Creeds.
I wasn’t speaking of an interest by Milt in orthodox Christianity, although prayerfully that will happen. A man his age is not likely to be persuaded by anything except a revelation from God or the work of the Holy Spirit. I hope his election would stimulate Christians to debate and proclaim the tenets of the faith. As to whom I want to vote: ANY REPUBLICAN WHO CAN KEEP THE DEMOCRATS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE. LET ME BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS: THE 2008 ELECTION WILL BE A MAJOR TURNING POINT IN THIS COUNTRY. ANYONE WHO DOUBTS THAT IS NOT ATTUNED TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY. IF REPUBLICANS AND INDEPENDENTS BEGIN TO AUGUE ABOUT RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE, SURE AS THE SUN RISES IN GOD'S HEAVEN, HILLARY/BARAK WILL RESIDE AT 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE. THIS TIME, WE WILL HAVE NO EXCUSE. DURING BILL'S TENURE, IT WAS POSSIBLE TO ARGUE THAT THE DETAILS OF THIS COUPLE'S LIFE AND CHARACTER WERE UNKNOWN. NOW, ENOUGH HAS BEEN EXPOSED THAT WE WILL HAVE NO EXCUSE. Do I wish Mitt were an evangelical Christian? Of course, and not only for the sake of his soul but for the sake of the country. However, I am convinced that he would make a far, far better President that any Democrat.

[quadrant]

If I have insulted your denomination, I apologize.