Norfolk illegally arrests VCDL member!

Phil van Cleave - - VCDL email ^ | 07/19/07 | Phil van Cleave

[ontap]

Sorry to disagree but that is what these thugs are counting on that you’ll cower before them and allow them to make up the rules as they see fit. If he had obeyed and something happened to his family and he’s standing there unarmed what would he have felt like. I believe he did the right thing in forcing them to arrest him illegally so he could later press the issue. According to the article he never resisted arrest but they acted thuggishly anyway. An egregious use of force.

[laotzu]

Thanks

[Calpernia]

Here is a thread on the VCDL incident

[stuartcr]

As I said, we see differently.

[looscnnn]

I have the feeling that he wasn’t really being given the chance to leave. I think they said it just to CYA and then escalated their interaction with him. I have the feeling that they were determined to arrest him from the start and possibly to make an example of him. I could be wrong, but that is the feel I get.

[marktwain]

“Isn’t the maxim “You fight as you train?” Training includes visualization. I’m going to visualize cops saying,”Would you please leave?” and me saying, “Right away,” and then calling Phil van Cleave.”

It would have been a good idea to leave, call a bunch of friends with video recorders and perhaps a couple of other open carriers, and then return. It is amazing how law abiding officers become when they are being recorded.

That said, hindsight is 100 percent. I have been in situations similar to the one mentioned, in Arizona. Here, when I cited the law to the officer/officers, they always backed down.

But that is something that cannot be counted on.

[Mad Dawg]

Oh my.

Let's stipulate for the sake of discussion that what the guy did was stupid. NEVERTHELESS what the Norfolk deputies did was illegal.

That's what chaps my pumpkin. Cops breaking the law. Cops using handcuffs not to secure a baddie but to torment a detainee. Stupid (if indeed it was stupid for the gentleman to be carrying) is one thing. Cops breaking the law is quite another, and a very serious thing.

[Hazcat]

Like I said, if I think I may need it, I will have it. Having been to these events, in my opinion, this guy did not need to open carry. I have known people that like to open-carry, because it makes them feel empowered and they tend to show-off, those are the types that worry me, and in my opinion, give the anti-gun people more voice...I don’t like either of them or what they do, so I comment.

WOW!

Clairvoyant, able to read peoples purpose with out asking, and arrogant.

You really impress me! (not)

[epow]

Where, in any of my comments, did I defend the police actions, or say anything near what you are talking about?

The tenor of your entire post was that the victim of unwarranted police abuse should have just meekly allowed the cops to deprive him of a right which he clearly has under the laws of the state without questioning their reasons for doing so. Of course he should not have resisted arrest in such a situation, but if the account of the event is accurate he didn't resist he only questioned why he was being arrested when he was not breaking any law. In any case, unless he was physically resisting arrest there was no justification for the brutal treatment he was given while handcuffed and helpless.

My point is that this police action was obviously pre-planned and calculated to intimidate licensed gun carriers into giving up their right to carry where the cops don't want them to, not to enforce a valid law. Any such action by LE is totally unacceptable, they are hired to enforce the law, not to enforce their opinion of what the law should be.

[stuartcr]

I suppose someone could break into my house, and steal things from there when I’m not home, or I could get shot from a distance, and then have someone come take my weapon, or someone could commit a crime with another kind of weapon, etc. As I said, life is full of first events, and we make our calls, as we see fit.

[B4Ranch]

> I was glad to see his expression and attitude change when viewed over the sights of my p239.<

Big grin

[stuartcr]

I have no arguement to support, I just stated my opinion. I said I thought it was irresponsible of the guy, and I think there are times and places to carry or not, that’s all there is to it.

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

What does this deputy’s race have to do with anything? Did you notice that you wrote that? I get the message of the posting but that line causes me to pause.

I caught that too. Unnecessary.

[ontap]

It’s pretty scary the number of people on this post willing to shift the blame to the innocent victim, He did nothing either stupid or illegal. He was harassed and arrested illegally without cause. You can disagree with the law but it has to be changed, not broken, especially by the police. Sad!!

[Mad Dawg]

I think your point is certainly arguable even if it's not worth posting twice. (How'd that happen anyway?)

I think though that this was a conflict for which he was unprepared. I guess part of my future planning will include making sure the boss-lady has a set of car keys, and (if my kid hadn't grown up and left for western skies) explaining to the kid (or kiddies), "The nice police person may lock Daddy up today but it's all okay and it'll come out just fine; Daddy's just being a citizen in a free country and these misunderstandings happen.

[BlackbirdSST]

I prefer concealed carry, for OPSEC. You might be able to kick-@ss if you see them coming, but if little Johnnie Gang-banger decideds your Sig might look better in his hooptie, you’re going to take a half-full 40oz bottle of beer to the skull from behind. Self Defense doesn’t start with firearms, it starts with reality.

If little johnny gang banger is going to hit you in the back of the head it's just as likely to be for a whole host of reasons, your money, your weapon, your tennis shoes. I'd wager you are more likely to be targeted with weapon concealed than exposed for all to see. Anyone who has ever approached me while I'm open carry has always shown great respect. I don't frequent little johnnyanbangers turf, so it's a moot point. Our reality's differ. Blackbird.

[stuartcr]

My apparent clairvoyance, ability to read peoples purpose with out asking, and arrogance, have served me quite well so far.

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

Could mean if anyone would appreciate the importance of the 2nd Amendment it would be a black, considering the history of gun control laws being used to disarm blacks, thus it is more surprising a black officer would participate in this action.

Gee, I hope you didn't hurt yourself reaching for that one.

[stuartcr]

While you may have read tenor into my statements, I did not write any, I merely made my opinion known...as we all do here on FR.

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

The black gun owner, an articulate, polite, 23 year-old who has helped at VCDL tables at various gun shows in the Tidewater area, had guns drawn and pointed at him by the police on the first occasion.

Was he clean, too? </Obama Reference>