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To: Ancesthntr
You must read the Old and New in conjunction. They ABSOLUTLY support one another. If you open your heart you will see that Jesus is the absolute fulfillment of the over 300 prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah.

Jewish leaders of today and yesterday, unfortunately are/were looking for a Messiah that will/would free the Jewish people from their enemies of this world. Since Jesus didn’t arrive as an earthly king and wipe out the Roman empire they dismissed him. What they missed is that He came to conquer the ruler of this world (Satan), the real enemy, and has already set them free through His perfect blood sacrifice. Not freedom from the oppression of earthly rulers, but freedom from the punishment of sin.

While I am confident that we disagree on many points, I have nothing but love for my Jewish brothers and sisters and stand behind Israel. Prayers for you and yours.

189 posted on 07/18/2007 2:21:05 PM PDT by Anti-Hillary (Anyone but Hitlery)
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To: Anti-Hillary
We clearly do disagree on many matters of theology, though I am glad to hear of your compassion for Jews and your backing of Israel. I know from looking at many of your other posts over time that you're a thoroughly decent person. WRT Judaism as a theology and its prophecies, though, I think that you are somewhat misinformed:

The idea that someone else could sacrifice for anyone else's sins appears nowhere in Judaism (same with the concept of forgiving someone for their sins against a 3rd party - I'm often asked why Jews can't forgive the Nazis for murdering other Jews...its impossible, even G-d Himself cannot forgive for wrongs not done to Him, so how could I do it?).

As for defeating Satan (who's not a fallen angel, not some red guy with hoofs, horns and a pointy tail, not a rival of any kind, but rather a tempter of Man at G-d's behest and command - "ha satan" - the satan, not "Satan" as in a proper name) - that's up to each of us to defeat our own personal Evil Inclination. No one can do it for us, that's our own burden to fulfill by deeds.

There's also no concept, no hint of any kind, of a Messiah needing a do-over to complete his job - and there's no way that the Jesus of your faith (or anyone else, for that matter) ever completed the job. BTW, Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish People of the time because they recognized that Jesus didn't measure up to the status of Moschiach (however good Jesus may have been).

Please read the links I gave you - Jesus was Jewish and from Bethlelem (Beit Lechem, actually), but that's about all. Its too general, too many people (including King David) meet those broad criteria. Moschiach ben David (the Messiah descended from David) will not be killed by anyone, period. Moschiah ben Yosef (descended from Joseph) will be a warrior who will (or may, depending on one's point of view) die while fighting the real-world enemies of Israel. Jesus qualifies as a candidate for neither position.

Again, I don't seek to insult you in any way, especially as you seem to be such a moral person, but your understanding of things Jewish seems to be somewhat less than complete.

192 posted on 07/18/2007 3:16:11 PM PDT by Ancesthntr
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To: Ancesthntr; Anti-Hillary
You must read the Old and New in conjunction. They ABSOLUTLY support one another.

Oh boy. I hate seeing this thread of concern for Israel getting highjacked into a theological argument. But here goes.

Something "going with" something else doesn't mean too much, especially if something has been forged specifically to "go with" something that is already accepted. I'm quite sure mormons would tell you if you would only read the Bible and the Book of Mormon together that they "absolutely go together."

Anti-Hillary, your love of Israel is sincere and appreciated, but your faith is circular in nature: you base your beliefs on your composite bible (old and new testaments), yet the only reason you "know" that the "new testament" is a genuine part of the Bible at all is that that's what you have always believed. You've never known a bible that didn't have a "new testament" in it and you just "know" that it's supposed to be there!

Even the self-evidence of the Torah is based not on mere sentiment or fideism but on an actual historical event that occurred before the entire Jewish Nation over 3300 years ago, as well as a continual organic tradition of handing over the authentic original text from generation to generation. Plus the text of the Torah itself contains encoded information that shows it to be the "DNA code" of the universe, but this doesn't come through in translation.

The "bibles" used in the official Jewish ritual don't even contain the Prophets or the Hagiographa but rather only the five books of Moses hand-written on a scroll. This is the eternal part of the Bible. The Prophets and Hagiographa serve only a temporary function. Revelation is not progressive (from a low base to ever greater heights) but rather regressive (from the absolute height of the Torah to ever lower levels). The Jews are certainly more critical thinking than most chr*stians who believe their bible is self-evidently self-authenticating, so please let's not have any of that ridiculous "if you'd only read it you'd believe" stuff. I used to believe that stuff myself until I saw that my assumptions were groundless. If you would ever begin reading the Torah without a pre-supposed belief that the "new testament" is its "fulfillment" you might notice this to.

And considering the number of chr*stians who want a warrior-messiah, that charge against the Jews is really getting old and hypocritical.

Now let's get back to the business at hand . . . okay???

217 posted on 07/18/2007 5:46:49 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Tziyyon bemishpat yippadeh, veshaveyha bitzdaqah.)
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