Taiwan Chooses Boeing's Apache in US$1.5 Billion Helicopter Deal

Dow Jones Newswires ^ | July 10, 2007

[sukhoi-30mki]

Taiwan Chooses Boeing Over Bell In US$1.5 Billion Helicopter Deal

July 10, 2007: 06:47 AM EST

TAIPEI (AP)--Taiwan's army wants to buy 30 Boeing Co. (BA) Apache attack helicopters from the United States, an official said Tuesday, in a deal that will almost certainly roil rival China.

Col. Dai Kuang-chao said the military opted for the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow over Bell's AH-1Z Cobra because it better suited the army's needs.

"This fits our military requirements," Dai said. "The Cobra may be a bit newer but it is still not battle proven."

The deal, worth US$1.5 billion, still needs the approval of the U.S. government and Taiwan's Legislature.

China can be expected to pressure Washington not to approve the sale, in line with its efforts to prevent Taiwan from procuring sophisticated military equipment from abroad.

The two sides split amid civil war in 1949, and China continues to view Taiwan as part of its territory.

It has threatened to attack if the democratic island makes its de facto independence permanent.

Last month Taiwan's Legislature approved the purchase of American submarine hunting aircraft, a small part of a US$15 billion package that also includes American diesel submarines and the third generation of the Patriot anti-missile system.

[sukhoi-30mki]

[Walkingfeather]

bummer for the chi coms. heeheheheh

[PAR35]

package that also includes American diesel submarines

Is that part of the deal really still alive?

[sukhoi-30mki]

Haven’t got a clue-atleast it was not deleted 6 years after it was proposed by GWB.

[starbase]

I recall some Afghan jihadis in a news report once said "We don't fear the Russians, but we fear their helicopters"

Judging from this picture, I see what they mean about frightening helicopters!

[Always Right]

Boo-yah. Just bought some Boeing stock. Hope this pushes her up!

[ReignOfError]

Can the Apache be adapted to carry an effective anti-ship missile?

[mazza]

I think Taiwan is starting to realize that the US may or may not be there to defend them when China decides to give it a go.

[Constantine XI Palaeologus]

We have diesels?

I wonder if they’re going to increase their stock of AAMs and SAMs, because they have a ridiculously small amount on hand IIRC.

[starbase]

I think Taiwan is starting to realize that the US may or may not be there to defend them when China decides to give it a go.

I think this might be true. Taiwan actually has an indigenous missile they make, costs about $300 mil, very effective anti-ship from what I've read. They could make a butt load of those with the same $18 billion that the sub package calls for.

Who knows, maybe they're pounding them out right now. They can be mounted on trucks and moved all around Taiwan.

I'm living in Taiwan right now. Although people don't really talk about it much, because it's not a very interesting topic, I get a sneaking feeling that many in Taiwan would be happy to "do a Hong Kong" and just accept "Special Economic Zone" status.

Some projections I read here in Taiwan (in English) said that two of China's provinces will each match Taiwan's economic size in the next 5 years, so the idea of a permanently independent Taiwan is largely a pipe dream of hyper patriotic Taiwanese.

But it will be a while before anything changes so we'll see how things unfold.

[rmlew]

I always thought that the problem was that there were 2 groups of Fifth columnists:
1. The Multi-national businessmen who had interests in China.
2. The Nationalists wed to China, for whom Formosa is a province, not a country.

[sukhoi-30mki]

Probably anti-ship variants of the Hellfire or the Norwegian Penguin missile.Effective against smaller ships.

[starbase]

1. The Multi-national businessmen who had interests in China.
2. The Nationalists wed to China, for whom Formosa is a province, not a country.

I'd say that's largely true. Taiwan has invested $100 billion, or more, in Mainland China! That's an incredible sum for such a small island. I think more than 1 million Taiwanese are now working in Mainland China (out of a population of 23 million Taiwanese). The monied interests for the Taiwanese in China are enormous.

The Nationalists who came over ruled the roost for nearly 50 years. There was a congress (The Legislative Yuan), but it never had elections. Some old boys were still congressmen 45 years after leaving China.

The huge development incurred by Taiwanese democracy, is that the local Taiwanese (who are Chinese people who came from Fukien province in China about 300 years ago), and are 85% of the population, finally won the ability to vote their own interests. (for 50 years the Nationalists were pretty harsh, the Taiwan dialect (which is actually the Fukien dialect) was forbidden in schools and government (that's kind of like someone invading the US then not letting us speak English in schools), and there was even a massacre of about 2000 local people who resisted the Nationalists (called The White Terror, it's now a Taiwan National holiday on 2/28).

So anyway, now that the Taiwanese can win any election, Taiwan is now very different than it was when I first visited about 20 years ago. Now the Taiwanese, who are generally quite nice folks, hold most of the cards, and the Nationalists and Hakkas (another widely dispersed and prevalent Chinese ethnic group) are pretty damn bitter.

As soon as the first Taiwanese president was elected (he's still the president, name is Chen Shui Bian) then Taiwan's economy started to decline for the first time in 50 years.

Not really all his fault, since China and India were coming online just then, but it makes the ethnic bitterness here even more bitter.

Personally I can't see Taiwan failing to go back to China (in fact, Taiwan has never been a country, it had Chinese settlers about 300 years ago, it was declared a Ching Imperial Province in something like 1896, was immediately taken by Japan and held for 50 years, then returned to China and then used as the Nationalist refuge for the last 50 years).

It's a funny little island with a funny little history, but it is indisputably Chinese, and really can't be defended forever from such a large and nearby country, so I, for one, would just as soon start talking about future "arrangements" nowadays, to make sure things go as smoothly as possible.

I expect at some point, without much fanfare, the world will be surprised one day when Taiwan just goes back to China, probably after making a deal with the Commies (if they are still in power as the population in China gets more and more rebellious.)

[Brimack34]

What is the price at? I was going to buy me some after all teh contracts they landed.

[Cringing Negativism Network]

I think I agree with you.

I lived in both China and Taiwan, more in Taiwan. It some ways lives up to its billing as the 51st state.

Taiwan has a vigorous democratic system. The DPP currently is in charge, they’re sort of like the US Democrat party. The traditional KMT of Chiang Kai Shek, sort of Republicans.

But when it really gets down to brass tacks, Taiwanese are Chinese (or Fujian/Taiwan) first... and only after that, advocates of democracy.

It is not democracy itself which drives the standoff across the Strait. It is largely face. And control.

Taiwan is democratic, because we support Taiwan and we are democratic.

Democracy there, is in some ways exactly as strong as American influence. If some other nation becomes more influential to Taiwan’s situation, their system will likely become supreme there.

5,000 years of Chinese history, have not demonstrated any inkling of a natural trend toward individual liberties. Society there (even in Taiwan) is extraordinarily vertical.

I think truthfully, liberty in Asia, may have reached its zenith. At least in areas, controlled by ethnic Chinese.

From here on, the PRC starts to remake Chinese Asia, in its image.

A return, to Empire. Complete with a brand new version of the Emperor: the Party.

[rmlew]

Personally I can't see Taiwan failing to go back to China (in fact, Taiwan has never been a country, it had Chinese settlers about 300 years ago, it was declared a Ching Imperial Province in something like 1896, was immediately taken by Japan and held for 50 years, then returned to China and then used as the Nationalist refuge for the last 50 years).
Your history lesson does not support your conclusion. For thousands of years, the Paiwan, Taiwan's indigenous population were independent, losing their freedom only to be conquered in the 12th century by Hakka Chinese from the mainland. The Island of Formosa was colonized by the Dutch in 1624 century, and the Spanish move into the north shortly thereafter.
Chinese Pirates/Ming Loyalists retake the Island in 1662. The Qing capture the Island 20 years later and hold onto it until the Sino-Japanese War.

20 years of rule in the 17th century and 2 years in the 20th century by the oifficial government of China are hardly overwhelming.
I've never bought the Han propaganda.

It's a funny little island with a funny little history, but it is indisputably Chinese, and really can't be defended forever from such a large and nearby country, so I, for one, would just as soon start talking about future "arrangements" nowadays, to make sure things go as smoothly as possible.

Then we should also sell out Singapore, South Korea, and expect the Finlandization of Japan.

I don't see Communist China as stable. Their economic growth is uneven and bolstered by unpayable debt to unprofitable companies. If the economy tanks, they lose the mandate of heaven.

[starbase]

Taiwan is democratic, because we support Taiwan and we are democratic.

Democracy there, is in some ways exactly as strong as American influence. If some other nation becomes more influential to Taiwan’s situation, their system will likely become supreme there.

Yes, this is an excellent and very profound point. Also here in Taiwan, they use 220v electricity, and seven digit phone numbers, just like we do! (even though others in Asia don't).

They are really good at sucking up to whoever is the big boss. In fact, they don't even think of anything as "sucking up", you do it this way at this time, things change (so sorry), and now you do everything another way! (while all the while remaining very "Chinese").

Yes, it has been that way for 5000 years. I'm amazed sometimes how the timing and source of some directive at work (I work here, for now) takes much higher precedent over whether it is intelligent or a good idea, they just do the higher ranked idea, not the better idea.

And, perhaps more importantly, it's interesting to see when someone's stock goes down, so does the value of all their policy decisions, both current and previous policies. At that point, the new person's ideas now rank higher, so we then do those.

So yes, I like your insightful point that they reflect whoever is in charge, and they have built a culture on quickly changing that reflection just as quickly as primacy changes hands.

It will be interesting to watch Asia. So far, while individual liberty and free rights does have some impact, the "Chinese Way", in my observations, does have the ability to exterminate the individuality and pull the person into their own little "franchise" in the bigger "system". That is, until the Mandarin at the top changes, then we all switch places and do it all over again.

Before you know it, 5000 years go by!

[Tainan]

Wanting is not getting.

No money....No honey.

[Cringing Negativism Network]

Sah-ko, haribei mwa-ji.

(phonetically: thank you very much)

:)

[Tainan]

The only things 220v are my a/c's. All electronics I brought from the US work faultlessly.

Interesting comments re:Taiwan. Agree with some...chuckle at others.

As for the Mainland...its not 5,000 (or the more widely used 3,000) years of progress...its 1 year repeated 5,000 (or 3,000) times.

Now that Ma has hooked with Siew...he looks even stronger. A Bian was a blip on the screen wo made the right promises at the right time. He's toast as is most of the DPP.

The fun never stops.