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"Realism" Is Ugly in North Korea
AEI ^ | 07/02/07 | David Frum

Posted on 07/09/2007 7:36:57 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster

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These negotiations reassure North Korea they can have their weapons and their aid too: a perfect outcome from a North Korean point of view, a pretty good one from China's, and absolutely appalling from the point of view of the rest of the world.

But Bush will get a pet on the head by his dad and Condi will get A+ from CFR. Everybody will sing Gumbaya on the new-found realsim which (temporarily) reassured the safety of financial portfolios by bribing China and N. Kroea.

1 posted on 07/09/2007 7:37:00 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster; AmericanInTokyo; Steel Wolf; nuconvert; MizSterious; nw_arizona_granny; ...

Bush suckered by China, ping!


2 posted on 07/09/2007 7:38:17 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster (kim jong-il, chia head, ppogri, In Grim Reaper we trust)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Bump.


3 posted on 07/09/2007 8:03:06 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny ( Today is a good day for working on some heavy praying. The world needs God to hear them.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster; Jet Jaguar; monkapotamus; All

Hey jet latest on Chia Pet and North Korea


4 posted on 07/09/2007 8:04:55 PM PDT by SevenofNine ("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
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To: TigerLikesRooster

You know what? I think W is getting suckered almost as badly as JIMMY CARTER...!


5 posted on 07/09/2007 8:10:53 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: gaijin

do ya think we could get china to send n.korea their poisened food and lead coated toys. i am sure kim ill wouldn’t care


6 posted on 07/09/2007 8:28:19 PM PDT by alfie (peace through superior firepower)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
IT IS OVER.

JULY 2007.

BUSH LOST.

KIM JONG-IL WON.

'NUFF SAID.

I so wash my hands of the Bush Administration. Particularly on this issue, if not the illegal immigration amnesty thingy.

7 posted on 07/09/2007 10:46:51 PM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (Sad so many members of the World's Policeman--our fellow Americans--know little about their "beat")
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To: AmericanInTokyo

Exactly. George W. Bush, professing Christian that he is, has chosen to submit to, and by this ‘agreement’ with North Korea has essentially condoned the actions of a genocidal regime, a regime which is by many definitions even more brutal and sadistic than Nazi Germany itself.

Countless concentration camps, gulags, and chemical-biological experimentation facilities where the ‘subjects’ are entire families removed from North Korean society for the flimsiest of reasons, or on the whim of any one of Comrade Chia Pet’s political toadies.

Starvation is the rule, except for the privileged class holding all political power.

The blood of innocent North Koreans is on the hands of George W. Bush as surely as the blood of hundreds of thousands of victims of the 8 year long Iran-Iraq War is on the hands of Jimmy Carter. We should not have been signing treaties and making agreements with the demonic scum in Pyongyang running the show, we should have been forcing regime change for the sake of the North Korean people, and Beijing and the rest of the world be damned.

This is a shameful moment for America.


8 posted on 07/10/2007 9:37:05 AM PDT by mkjessup (Jan 20, 2009 - "We Don't Know. Where Rudy Went. Just Glad He's Not. The President. Burma Shave.")
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Anybody who says "Clinton seriously considered bombing the North Korean reactors" is engaged in fantasy.

Anybody who thinks that the dud of a test in October 2006 "jolted the Bush administration into relaunching Clinton-style diplomacy: direct face-to-face negotiations with North Korea." is engaged in fantasy - this simply didn't happen, State Dept insisted on the same terms it offered before the "test" as part of six-party talks. That has put pressure on China which is scared more than anybody of unstable Kim with his possible unstable future nuke experiments.

"Graham Allison, a nuclear expert who served as assistant secretary of defence in the Clinton administration" - oh, goody, where would this article be without relying on yet another Clinton administration expert?

"The North Korean regime survives courtesy of Chinese aid and protection. It is China that provides the North Korean regime with coal, food and credit. Without Chinese aid, the regime could not endure" - exactly! which is why six-party talks concentrated on China and ignored Kim's wishes of direct US-NoKo talks...

China supports North Korea because it dreads a North Korean collapse. The Chinese leaders know that such a collapse would unify the peninsula under a democratic government based in Seoul and aligned with the U.S. and Japan--for them, a terrifying outcome - another Frum's fantasy; based on reunification experience of Germany, it's more likely that unification will lead to some kind of more socialistic kind of government, with closer political and trade ties to China and even less reliable US partner than it is now, whether it is based in Seoul or not. This will only relieve China from worrying about and subsidizing her unstable neighbor and assure that Korean Peninsula and Japan will not "go nuclear" leaving fewer countries able to challenge them with that power in SE Asia. Korean unification, if not done on right terms, could be a very dangerous development for US and can reshape the map of our SE alliances.

"These negotiations reassure North Korea they can have their weapons and their aid too" - how? no progress - no aid... it's not a Clinton-Albright-UN deal.

"If this is "realism," what would fantasy look like?

Like this article?

9 posted on 07/10/2007 10:21:56 AM PDT by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: CutePuppy

Condi is that you?


10 posted on 07/10/2007 3:17:54 PM PDT by mkjessup (Jan 20, 2009 - "We Don't Know. Where Rudy Went. Just Glad He's Not. The President. Burma Shave.")
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To: mkjessup

Of course you have think their was some consideration if we say forced them into a military confrontation. Since they had at least two nukes (1994 CIA estimated four) then how many millions would died if South Korea was vaporized? We are stretched thin militarily. Japan is re-arming with at least strong naval defense capabilities under our direction. We just weren’t ready to confront them say five years ago and now they certainly have more nukes. What is scary is that the end game for China to move militarily on Asia and Taiwan is North Korea. Cut off that aid and I don’t agree with the author they will unite as a democracy, I believe Kim will attack the South.


11 posted on 07/10/2007 3:32:16 PM PDT by quant5
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To: mkjessup
REGIME CHANGE: OUT

APPEASEMENT: IN

12 posted on 07/10/2007 4:39:39 PM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (Sad so many members of the World's Policeman--our fellow Americans--know little about their "beat")
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To: AmericanInTokyo; quant5
REGIME CHANGE: OUT

APPEASEMENT: IN


Sir Winston Churchill's historic warnings against appeasement have clearly been forgotten. All the wannabe diplomats and analysts want to tell us what could or could not have been done, why we weren't able to do thus and so, but the bottom line to all of this is that the Western democracies (meaning America and our dwindling allies) either have to resign ourselves to global impotence by allowing tyrannies like those in North Korea, Iran, etc., to continue their mad policies to the detriment of the world, or we take them out and we take them out the Harry Truman way, the same way that the fanatical Japanese were convinced to surrender in 1945 after watching two of their cities being vaporized courtesy of Curtis LeMay, the Enola Gay, and Bock's Car.

We have the power, there is no question of it, and if we are too weak-minded to use it, we will ultimately see that same power used against us.

It's coming.
13 posted on 07/10/2007 5:04:44 PM PDT by mkjessup (Jan 20, 2009 - "We Don't Know. Where Rudy Went. Just Glad He's Not. The President. Burma Shave.")
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To: mkjessup
Of course it is coming.

One can see it here, right here in Asia.

We, the USA, are the laughing stock of Asia. In terms of North Korea, as viewed from the Asian perspective, we are no stronger under Bush in 2007 then we were under Clinton in 1997.

It has all come unravelled. The appeasers have won.

Some legacy, Mr. Bush. On January 20, 2009 you leave office and head for a small ranch in Texas. Kim Jong il remains in power, eating cavier, with 10-15 nukes under his control (10-15 nukes that were NOT there under the Clinton regime) and developing even more agressive ballistic technology (revised scuds for example) to attack Japan and our US forces there, and moving toward ICBM capabilities.

SOME GREAT LEGACY. PEACE IN OUR TIME.

14 posted on 07/10/2007 5:21:37 PM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (Sad so many members of the World's Policeman--our fellow Americans--know little about their "beat")
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To: TigerLikesRooster; SevenofNine

Might be of interest to you guys.


15 posted on 07/10/2007 5:26:36 PM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (Sad so many members of the World's Policeman--our fellow Americans--know little about their "beat")
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To: AmericanInTokyo; Jet Jaguar; monkapotamus; All

Who stupid idea was this AIT Dubya or Sunshine Condi


16 posted on 07/10/2007 5:54:20 PM PDT by SevenofNine ("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
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To: mkjessup

Agreed.

Saddam had specific assurances he would not be toppled.

He was.

Libya opened up and Syria left Lebanon.

Once the world saw that we, the Americans, started to falter and become weary (the left) they knew that they had nothing to fear from America. I believe the State Dept. saw this and has been advising policy based on it.

Now, Syria is back in Lebanon, Iran is posturing, and Little Kimmie is posturing.

Appeasement is ineffective every time it is tried.


17 posted on 07/10/2007 6:05:56 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: SevenofNine

Well, we know where the “Buck” ultimately stops, as President Truman said.


18 posted on 07/10/2007 6:32:40 PM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (Sad so many members of the World's Policeman--our fellow Americans--know little about their "beat")
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To: quant5
Kim can't invade the South if China threatens to walk in from the North. However, China has no intention of extending such cooperation on behalf of U.S. or S. Korea.

Because U.S. won't do anything against China, economically let along militarily.

Another scenario is that N. Korea could blink, at least some element of N. Korean military. The last time N. Korea blinked is in '76 when U.S. was fully prepared to move 100km into N. Korean territory after the infamous ax murder.

They are ruthless beyond pale, but not suicidal. If combined pressure of U.S. and China(however grudgingly) it will produce results. The trouble is nobody wants to lean hard on China, and China knows it.

19 posted on 07/10/2007 7:47:46 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster (kim jong-il, chia head, ppogri, In Grim Reaper we trust)
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To: AmericanInTokyo
They always say the situation is too bad to do anything. Then things get worse. They then say it is worse than before, therefore we have more reason not to do anything. Before you know it, enemy is aiming his gun right at your temple, point blank range.

All this worry about S. Korean casualties is in part justified, but there is a way to choke N. Korean regime if you have the will to do it. If they think choking is a bad option, appeasing is ten times worse.

Timid extremely risk-averse people who are always nervous that something could happen to their shaky inflated financial portfolios and always given to delusion that there is some "clever" way out of it. Anything less is the mentality of the blockhead and the stupid, according to them.

I give more chance to Kim's regime suddenly buckling on its own rather than the success of this ludicrous engagement.

As I argued from time to time, N. Korean regime will go down due to events beyond any outside players' control. Probably at quite an unexpected moment. And worst nightmare for these major players will unfold: Uncontrollable and unpredictable series of changes.

Changes in Korean Peninsula tend to be rather turbulent even in good times. All major players dragged their feet and contributed to turning containable turbulence into totally uncontrollable one. It is their karma to be the receiving end of what their folly brought about. It is just beginning.

20 posted on 07/10/2007 8:12:19 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster (kim jong-il, chia head, ppogri, In Grim Reaper we trust)
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