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To: radioman
There is only one traditional social value...liberty.

So let me guess, someone is against liberty if they oppose abortion "rights" and gay marriage, right?

Open borders is what we have now. Paul wants to close the borders, so I guess you're on the wrong side of that issue too.

Nope, closing the borders is one of the things I agree with Ron Paul about. BOTH he and I, however, differ with "orthodox" libertarianism about this issue, however. Libertarianism as a philosophical principle espouses "the free flow of labour", and that national borders ought not be a hindrance to any individual exercising their right to get the most benefit from their labour. Ron Paul's position on the borders is NOT libertarian.

77 posted on 06/27/2007 11:00:40 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Fred Thompson is Duncan Hunter without the training wheels)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Libertarianism as a philosophical principle espouses "the free flow of labour", and that national borders ought not be a hindrance to any individual exercising their right to get the most benefit from their labour.

That is true to some extent, but misleading if you leave out the remaining part of Libertarian positions with respect to immigration. First off, no Libertarian I know of is advocating illegal immigration when they advocate reducing restrictions on where and how people can travel and work. This is totally consistent with conservative positions, where the opposition is to illegal immigration, not immigration per se. But the most important part of the Libertarian position is not providing any government benefits for immigrants:

"However, the answer to this problem lies not in cutting off immigration, but in cutting the services that immigrants consume. The right to immigrate does not imply a right to welfare -- or any other government service."

"Suppose we increased the level of immigration, but the rule would be that immigrants and their descendants would have no access to government social services, including welfare, Social Security, health care, business subsidies, and the public schools."

Seeing the whole story puts the idea of more open (but still regulated) borders in quite a different light. The Libertarian position on immigration is actually quite a bit more "conservative" than the position any Republican politician has taken.

86 posted on 06/27/2007 11:22:03 AM PDT by freeandfreezing
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
So let me guess, someone is against liberty if they oppose abortion "rights" and gay marriage, right?

No, they are against liberty when they give the federal government powers that are not delegated to the federal government by the Constitution. Many libertarians are pro-life, they just support the Constitution against those who want to use abortion and gay marriage to increase unconstitutional federal intrusion into our lives.

Libertarianism as a philosophical principle espouses "the free flow of labour", and that national borders ought not be a hindrance to any individual exercising their right to get the most benefit from their labour. Ron Paul's position on the borders is NOT libertarian.

Not true. The free flow of labor is an ideal to strive for. It requires a completely free market. It won't work in a socialist state where immigrants come for the big government welfare benefits. Take away the freebies and you will solve the illegal immigration problem. All libertarians understand this and Ron Paul's position on the borders is the same as every libertarian I know. I'll remind you that it's the NEOCONS who have opened the border to the illegal invasion.
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123 posted on 06/27/2007 12:43:37 PM PDT by radioman
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