Replies

I Said: “I find your post to violate most of the rules of posting mane calling, slander,”
You Said: I called you no names. But we are quite used to you “claiming” name calling and slander in order to try and win by innuendo. You can nowhere find in my previous post a single sentence where I call you a buffoon, a liar, a jackanape, or any of the other terms I might use if I were in the business of gratuitous slander, so you stand corrected in your shell game.

LOL!, I'll have some fun here cataloging your Faux pas.
You routinely call me, my church and my prophets names, slander us and i'll just count from here down in the post.

I Said: “no supporting documentation while stating opinions as fact,”
You Said: Come now, you base everything you say on a book so self-inconsistent that it gives strict documentation a black eye and a kick in the rear. Besides, you’ve made it clear that no evidence presented by the antis will ever be accepted by you (you cannot do so, else the whole Mormon house of cards would fall down).
This is a good example of an unsubstantiated statement, care to give an example? Guess not, because you didn't you didn't need to list them all, just one would have made this statement credible, none = no credibility.

I Said: “IMHO there is little substance to your post.”
You Said: It wasn’t meant to be a substantive document rehashing the last three months of evidence given by myself and others that Joseph Smith was a philandering, glass gazing, tinpot general, false prophet and general scalliwag. I assumed that anyone who had read through what would be a hundred pounds of documentation would have the mental capacity to realize Joseph Smith was just a carni scamster. But since you aren’t capable of that, then I must assume you are a lost cause and that if Brigham Young said there were aliens on the dark side of the moon, you’d believe him.
Oh, where to begin, i know, I'll tat things in order

You intended to post a post with little substance, but lots of invective, I'll let this statement just stand as it is.
You call Joseph Smith a philander, when no evidence you have posted stuck because it was all lies and you believed them. (Oh and this is name calling...)
"Glass gazing" Even when Urim and Thummim are Biblical, and were used in the Bible for divining, OK, as for me and the Mormons, we will stick with the Bible (who'd a thunk) (Oh and this is name calling...)
"Tinpot General" He commanded an army of 5,000 men, you? (Oh and this is name calling...)
"False Prophet" One mans PRophet is another man's False prophet, it's just not polite to call them names.
"General Scaliwag" General name calling (he's a bad man mommy, a bad man)
"carni scamster" is this name worse than general scaliwag, or vice versa?
You now questions my intelligence (that's name calling, and denigrating in one fell swoop)
You now declare Brigham young to have talked about aliens (while it might be considered humor, it is also inferring that he did, and a lie denigrating a great man.)

Wow, nine posting rule violations in one paragraph, you must be proud of that record.

You Said: Since it is clear that in your mind there is literally NO act by Joseph Smith or the Prophets that followed him that was in error (they being Gods-to-be after all), there is literally zero reason to present new data to you (though that is not the case with others). Go read the last few thousand post threads if you want even More evidence.**********************************
10. Now you attribute some kind of Mormon doctrine of infallibility to us, you have the wrong church. I have read your "Evidence" and refuted most if not all of it, but that is a matter of opinion.

There is an idiom in english "There are none so blind as those who will not see" now you undoubtably see this as supporting your position, while I am the one using it. I wonder if you will understand that my perspective is just as valid (or more so) than yours, or if you will just assume you are correct in your perspective and there are no others perspectives.

Regarding the Nauvoo Expositor:
FC:The Nauvoo Expositor’s description of Joseph and Hiram’s running a tin-pot dictatorship is true to form.
DU: ROTFLOL! The Nauvoo expositor was specifically set up to print lies and stir up controversy with the Mormons! To quote them as some sort of authority means you either didn’t research them, or well, I’ll leave that up to the readers
Oh please, I guess in that case you believe FreeRepublic should be destroyed as well, because it has graciously given voice to those of us who according to you “print lies and stir up controversy with the Mormons!” Joseph Smith and brother Hiram simply had the Nauvoo Expositor press destroyed when it began to reveal they were harboring fugitives, stealing wives, involved in land speculation and voter intimidation. I assume since Joseph Smith was such a saint, you’d follow in his footsteps and have FreeRepublic shut down as well.
I have absolutely no desire to have FR shut down, FR is a bright spot in the already better illuminated world of information when compared to the murky darkness of the MSM.

One of the reasons FR is loved by conservatives is because of the reason displayed by most of the posters here, Some posters get quite unreasonable when it comes to religion, even to the point of attacking other peoples religion, it's interesting actually from a human relations perspective to see where these people fall on actually working with these people of other religions, but I will not report my conclusions here.

Oh, and 11. Harboring Fugitives 12. Stealing wives 13. voter intimidation

You Said: But go ahead and keep discussing the backwater nasty black holes of Mormon history, we can certainly continue in that swamp land for eternity. ***************************************
Slander again for number 14.

You Said: FC: The polygynous/polyandrous adultery thing, especially with a 14 year old pimped by papa Heber Kimbal is thoroughly disgusting.
Pimped by papa, you have a singularly revolting way of phrasing things, never the less, this is a slander for number 15.

I Said: DU:Mary, you know, Jesus’ mother was 15 when he was born. I have seen estimates as low as 13, but 15 is what the Catholics say. Two of the 14 year olds were were WIDOWS when Joseph married them, The other two’s husbands were missing and presumed dead.
You Said: Wow, that sure makes it all right then. Of course, the Kimball girl was convinced BY HER FATHER to be Smith’s wife, and since Heber was a church leader himself, I doubt she was starving. And I guess all the other founding Father’s were just taking in waifs out of the goodness of their hearts. Why don’t you go do a search for Joseph Smith’s love letters to see how he was sneaking out on Emma to do the fandango out of the goodness of his heart.

Helen Mar Kimbal spent much of her life defending the practice of polygamy, neither she not Joseph ever said they slept together, indeed, they lived apart, had no children together, yet you ascribe the basest of motives and impute worse based on what is at best only conjecture on your part.
Now you accuse Joseph of sneaking out on emma, not true, she knew about the polygamy, and had to agree to it. (slander #15)

I Said: “Have a good day now.”
You Said: Well, at least I’ll be honest, since you are in fact wishing me a bad day, I will do the same to you.
I never wished you a bad day brother, you now attribute pettiness, interpret my words to mean the opposite of what I said, lets see, that's 16 and 17. You Said: The real problem for you is that you’ve begun to realize that these huge threads have exposed thousands of readers to the shadowy underworld of Mormon history and pseudo-prophecy. If your occult world view of seer stones, brass orbs, magic underwear, secret handshakes, etc. is correct, then the rest of us really are assinine apostates doomed to hell. Obviously it just causes you a world of frustration not to be able to shout “damn you all to hell you heathen”.

You tell me what I am thinking (If I need the help, I'll call, don't wait up...)
"pseudo-prophecy" can you spell slander?
"Your occult world view" LOL, that's not calling me anything, now is it?
"magic underwear" attribution again, I never said it was magic, but it does remind us of a covenant, and the covenants with God have power, but the underwear is just cloth, I can be just as blessed if they are not available. Tell me, how is that different than a priests collar, or a nun's habit, or a Jews keppah? (SP?)
Secret handshakes, like the Shriners, Masons, elks, and most kids clubs have? (this again is attribution of a meaning we do not place on things.)
Mormons do not believe that the rest of the world is "Doomed to hell" (attribution again) We spend hours and hours doing genealogy, and missionary work just helping others who are not Mormon because we are commanded to. Mormonism is the fairest religion out there with what we believe will happen to unbelieve.
I have never been wished to dam you to hell FC, (its the projection and attribution thing again) I have sincerely prayed for you, and wished you the Joy that daily fills my heart, but you reject it, so I am left just praying for you. you have never bothered me so much that I felt the need to use expletives for I have a large and well worn vocabulary.

You Said: But I suspect that day will come, you will reveal your true colors.
I like dark blues with Grey interiors on cars, brunettes and freckles, is that what you mean?

You Said: Hey, how’s that Romney guy doing in the polls, a God like him should have already skyrockedted to the top.

Actually I'm a Fred Head ( Go Fred Thompson )<-- My true colors since you asked... (Dang, it won't let me turn the background charcoal in the preview, hope it will come through in the real deal.)

DelphUser,
It takes a deluded true-believer of the highest order to believe my deconstruction of Joseph Smith constitutes slander. First of all, what I’ve written cannot be considered slander of you personally (unless you are Joseph Smith reincarnated). So slinging the slander term around is just another spin by you to attempt to portray me as a name caller. By your definition I would be a slanderer if I said Alexander the Great was an adulteror who believed he was a God (let’s see that lawsuit stick in court).

[You call Joseph Smith a philander, when no evidence you have posted stuck because it was all lies and you believed them. (Oh and this is name calling...) ]

Name calling, my Rosy Red Posterior - here is tthe Philanderer Joseph Smith’s “marriage” record from the Mormon Family geneaology site:
Joseph SMITH (AFN: 9KGL-W2) Pedigree
Sex: M Family

Event(s)
Birth: 23 Dec 1805
Sharon, Windsor, Vermont
Death: 27 Jun 1844
Carthage Jail, Hancock, Illinois
Burial: 29 Jun 1844
Nauvoo, Hancock, Illinois
Parents
Father: Joseph SMITH (AFN: 4C9X-LR) Family
Mother: Lucy MACK (AFN: 4C9X-MX)

Marriage(s)
Spouse: Catherine WALKER (AFN: 1CB1-M7) Family
Marriage:

Spouse: Sarah SCOTT (AFN: 1Z2L-ST) Family
Marriage:

Spouse: Sarah STILES (AFN: 8R67-VW) Family
Marriage:

Spouse: Desdemona Wadsworth FULLMER (AFN: 2S9J-LX) Family
Marriage: 1842
Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Sarah LAWRENCE (AFN: 8R65-X0) Family
Marriage: Abt 11 1843 May

Spouse: Mary Elizabeth ROLLINS (AFN: 17RW-FT) Family
Marriage: 17 Jan 1842
Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Emma HALE (AFN: 91T1-HN) Family
Marriage: 18 Jan 1827
South Bainbridge, Chenango, Ny

Spouse: Amanda Melissa BARNES (AFN: 1S4B-X9) Family
Marriage: Sealed 19 1852 Jan
Salt Lake City, Ut

Spouse: Sylvia Porter SESSIONS (AFN: 1H4D-3M) Family
Marriage: 26 Jan 1846

Spouse: Zina Diantha HUNTINGTON (AFN: 8R65-S9) Family
Marriage: 27 Oct 1841
Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Mary HOUSTON (AFN: 2HDJ-8W) Family
Marriage: 3 Feb 1846

Spouse: Nancy Mariah WINCHESTER (AFN: 34HH-3H) Family
Marriage: 3 Feb 1846

Spouse: Helen Mar KIMBALL (AFN: 1FZD-48) Family
Marriage: May 1843
Smith’s Store, Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Lucy WALKER (AFN: 3FNF-72) Family
Marriage: 1 May 1843
Smith’s Store, Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Rhoda RICHARDS (AFN: 1F72-5R) Family
Marriage: 12 Jun 1843
Nauvoo, Illinois

Spouse: Eliza Roxey SNOW (AFN: 272Q-KP) Family
Marriage: 29 Jun 1842
Smith’s Store, Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Sarah Ann WHITNEY (AFN: 3LTZ-0W) Family
Marriage: 27 Jul 1842
Nauvoo, Hnck, Il

Spouse: Martha MCBRIDE (AFN: 1JJW-V0) Family
Marriage: Aug 1842
Smith’s Store, Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Malissa LOTT (AFN: 1CZR-T8) Family
Marriage: 20 Sep 1843
Nauvoo, Illinois

Spouse: Fanny YOUNG (AFN: 1BK5-VM) Family
Marriage: 2 Nov 1843

Spouse: Prescendia Lathrop HUNTINGTON (AFN: 1RBQ-97) Family
Marriage: 11 Dec 1841
Smith’s Store, Nauvoo, Hancock, Il

Spouse: Sophronia Gray FROST (AFN: 2HZ7-PN) Family
Marriage:

Spouse: Melissa SNOW (AFN: 272Q-N7) Family
Marriage:

Spouse: Cordelia Calista MORLEY (AFN: 1CP9-HR) Family
Marriage:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=ancestorsearchresults.asp

[”Glass gazing” Even when Urim and Thummim are Biblical, and were used in the Bible for divining, OK, as for me and the Mormons, we will stick with the Bible (who’d a thunk) (Oh and this is name calling...) ]

First you admit he’s a Glass Gazer, then you say it’s name calling. By the way, he was known as a glass gazer in the court documents from when he was arrested for being a minor scamster, so I’d leave this one alone if I were you.

[”Tinpot General” He commanded an army of 5,000 men, you? (Oh and this is name calling...) ]

How in hell can it be name calling when you admit he had his own army, AND he was arrested in part for treason against Illinois for declaring martial law in Nauvoo. If that isn’t a tinpot general, what is?

[”False Prophet” One mans PRophet is another man’s False prophet, it’s just not polite to call them names.]

But if they are a False Prophet, and you didn’t call them such, then you’d lose your own soul. So False Prophet stands.

[”General Scaliwag” General name calling (he’s a bad man mommy, a bad man) ]

Well, when you have a list of crimes as long as old Joe, then scaliwag fits.

[”carni scamster” is this name worse than general scaliwag, or vice versa? ]

He was a purveyor of seer stone revelations, how much more “carni” can you get?

“You now questions my intelligence (that’s name calling, and denigrating in one fell swoop) “

Einsteins birth called into question everyone’s intelligence, so it is hardly name calling to point out a lack of reasoning.

[You now declare Brigham young to have talked about aliens (while it might be considered humor, it is also inferring that he did, and a lie denigrating a great man.) ]

“A great man” and another big time polygamist. But he did get his talk on moon-men into print:

(Journal of Discourses., 1880, p. 27 1)

“...whose hearts leapt with joy and exceeding delectation... and dwelt into the cliffs of the orb of the basin named Hertz-sprung in the sight of all splendor..”

[Wow, nine posting rule violations in one paragraph, you must be proud of that record.]

Only in your deluded mind. I might as well claim to have found a thousand in yours, if I were to use your rules of discourse.

[FC:You Said: Since it is clear that in your mind there is literally NO act by Joseph Smith or the Prophets that followed him that was in error (they being Gods-to-be after all), there is literally zero reason to present new data to you (though that is not the case with others). Go read the last few thousand post threads if you want even More evidence.**********************************]

[10. Now you attribute some kind of Mormon doctrine of infallibility to us, you have the wrong church. I have read your “Evidence” and refuted most if not all of it, but that is a matter of opinion.]

It is not a matter of opinion. The Egyptian hieroglyphics have been translated and say nothing at all what Joseph Smith babbled on about, that is not a matter of opinion. Non-existence of Lamanite cities is not an opinion. Joseph Smith running his own seccessionist army is not an opinion. His polygamy and philandering is not an opinion.

[There is an idiom in english “There are none so blind as those who will not see” now you undoubtably see this as supporting your position, while I am the one using it. I wonder if you will understand that my perspective is just as valid (or more so) than yours, or if you will just assume you are correct in your perspective and there are no others perspectives.]

I don’t assume I am correct, I test the validity of Joseph Smith step by step.

[Regarding the Nauvoo Expositor:
FC:The Nauvoo Expositor’s description of Joseph and Hiram’s running a tin-pot dictatorship is true to form.
DU: ROTFLOL! The Nauvoo expositor was specifically set up to print lies and stir up controversy with the Mormons! To quote them as some sort of authority means you either didn’t research them, or well, I’ll leave that up to the readers
FC:Oh please, I guess in that case you believe FreeRepublic should be destroyed as well, because it has graciously given voice to those of us who according to you “print lies and stir up controversy with the Mormons!” Joseph Smith and brother Hiram simply had the Nauvoo Expositor press destroyed when it began to reveal they were harboring fugitives, stealing wives, involved in land speculation and voter intimidation. I assume since Joseph Smith was such a saint, you’d follow in his footsteps and have FreeRepublic shut down as well.]

[I have absolutely no desire to have FR shut down, FR is a bright spot in the already better illuminated world of information when compared to the murky darkness of the MSM.]

And it won’t be shut down as long as we ignore Joseph Smith’s example.

[One of the reasons FR is loved by conservatives is because of the reason displayed by most of the posters here, Some posters get quite unreasonable when it comes to religion, even to the point of attacking other peoples religion, it’s interesting actually from a human relations perspective to see where these people fall on actually working with these people of other religions, but I will not report my conclusions here.]

Oooooohhh, you’ve slandered me there (by your definition anyway). I am soooo hurt.

[Oh, and 11. Harboring Fugitives]

Cause he harbored fugitives.

[12. Stealing wives]

cause he was a wife stealer, no one but a few true believers will deny his polyandrous relations

[13. voter intimidation]

Joe and Hyrum were running for office based on telling people God told them to vote for them

[You Said: But go ahead and keep discussing the backwater nasty black holes of Mormon history, we can certainly continue in that swamp land for eternity. ***************************************
Slander again for number 14.]

Telling the truth isn’t slander. I know that’s a difficult concept for you.

[You Said: FC: The polygynous/polyandrous adultery thing, especially with a 14 year old pimped by papa Heber Kimbal is thoroughly disgusting.

DU:Pimped by papa, you have a singularly revolting way of phrasing things, never the less, this is a slander for number 15.]

I hardly think you should be proud of Heber Kimball pimping his own daughter to Joseph Smith, but if you want to keep brining it up, go for it. The daughter is the one who described how her father convinced her, maybe she should be convicted of slander.

[I Said: DU:Mary, you know, Jesus’ mother was 15 when he was born. I have seen estimates as low as 13, but 15 is what the Catholics say. Two of the 14 year olds were were WIDOWS when Joseph married them, The other two’s husbands were missing and presumed dead.
You Said: Wow, that sure makes it all right then. Of course, the Kimball girl was convinced BY HER FATHER to be Smith’s wife, and since Heber was a church leader himself, I doubt she was starving. And I guess all the other founding Father’s were just taking in waifs out of the goodness of their hearts. Why don’t you go do a search for Joseph Smith’s love letters to see how he was sneaking out on Emma to do the fandango out of the goodness of his heart.]

[Helen Mar Kimbal spent much of her life defending the practice of polygamy, neither she not Joseph ever said they slept together, indeed, they lived apart, had no children together, yet you ascribe the basest of motives and impute worse based on what is at best only conjecture on your part.
Now you accuse Joseph of sneaking out on emma, not true, she knew about the polygamy, and had to agree to it. (slander #15) ]

Wow, is that a two and a half double back twist spin. Joseph Smith is a polygamist who never ever ever slept with another woman other than Emma. I believe that. Sure I do.

[I Said: “Have a good day now.”
You Said: Well, at least I’ll be honest, since you are in fact wishing me a bad day, I will do the same to you.
I never wished you a bad day brother, you now attribute pettiness, interpret my words to mean the opposite of what I said, lets see, that’s 16 and 17.]

Well, you are a back stabber, so at least I’m truthful.

[You Said: The real problem for you is that you’ve begun to realize that these huge threads have exposed thousands of readers to the shadowy underworld of Mormon history and pseudo-prophecy. If your occult world view of seer stones, brass orbs, magic underwear, secret handshakes, etc. is correct, then the rest of us really are assinine apostates doomed to hell. Obviously it just causes you a world of frustration not to be able to shout “damn you all to hell you heathen”.]

[You tell me what I am thinking (If I need the help, I’ll call, don’t wait up...)
“pseudo-prophecy” can you spell slander? ]

Ummm, when it’s False Prophecy, no I can’t.

[”Your occult world view” LOL, that’s not calling me anything, now is it? ]

No more so than the opposite case - if Joseph Smith is true, then all the rest of us are abominations. So by definition one of us has an occult worldview, you are just too dishonest to come ourt and say it.

[”magic underwear” attribution again, I never said it was magic, but it does remind us of a covenant, and the covenants with God have power, but the underwear is just cloth, I can be just as blessed if they are not available. Tell me, how is that different than a priests collar, or a nun’s habit, or a Jews keppah? (SP?) ]

They don’t attribute the power to keep out evil to their garments.

[Secret handshakes, like the Shriners, Masons, elks, and most kids clubs have? (this again is attribution of a meaning we do not place on things.)
Mormons do not believe that the rest of the world is “Doomed to hell” (attribution again) We spend hours and hours doing genealogy, and missionary work just helping others who are not Mormon because we are commanded to. Mormonism is the fairest religion out there with what we believe will happen to unbelieve. ]

Fairest religion? oh yeah, I’ve seen the results of your fairness.

[I have never been wished to dam you to hell FC, (its the projection and attribution thing again) I have sincerely prayed for you, and wished you the Joy that daily fills my heart, but you reject it, so I am left just praying for you. you have never bothered me so much that I felt the need to use expletives for I have a large and well worn vocabulary. ]

Your insincerity drips from most of your posts. Just don’t pray to Joseph Smith for me (he must be a God somewhere by now), I’d rather take my chances on Scientology than wishing on Kolob to sayve me.