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To: js1138; hosepipe; betty boop; narby
What do creationists gain from supporting ID, when ID affirms common descent and affirms mainstream science's age for the earth? And if the people who object to evolution have a scientific alternative, where is it?

To be clear, you are not speaking of creationists but rather, Young Earth Creationists.

Most creationists are not YEC and have no problem with the age of the universe though they may have disputes among themselves about the origin of man and/or other biological life (from a previous post of mine:)

The Jewish mystics claim that God will hold us to account if fail to notice, to inquire, to try and understand the world around us. I agree (emphasis mine):

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. - Romans 1:18-21

The Christian or Jew looks at Creation and sees a revelation of the Creator (Psalms 19:1-3) whereas others see a different context (e.g. Buddhism) or no context at all (atheism/agnosticism.)

Also, the Jews see the Torah as a direct revelation of God. We Christians see all of Scripture as a revelation of God. Moreover we Christians see the Father's most important revelations in Himself - in the Person of Jesus Christ and in the indwelling Holy Spirit.

But we are all individuals and tend to understand things somewhat differently. Moreover - at the forefront of these debates - and fueling resentments is the different understanding among Christians concerning the creation of man which derives, not from science, but from our understanding of Scripture.

Specifically, we Christians have different interpretations of Romans 5:12–14 and I Corinthians 15:42–48: one side says that Adam was the first mortal man and the other says that Adam was the first ensouled man. Thus, the interpretation among Christians concerning Genesis 1-3 (the origin of man) cuts this way:

Young Earth Creationism which says that Adam was the first mortal man and therefore the physical evidence must support a young earth of some 6000 years of age in proper or absolute time.

Gosse Omphalus Hypothesis which says that Adam was the first mortal man and that God created an old looking universe some 6000 years ago in proper or absolute time.

Old Earth Creationism which says that Adam was the first ensouled man, that the universe is some 15 billion years old in proper or absolute time, that evolution occurred and Adam was ensouled some 6000 years ago in proper or absolute time.

Special Creationism which says that Adam was created some 6000 years ago in some unspecified time and place.

My view – which is akin to Jewish physicist Gerald Schroeder's is that we must consider both relativity and inflationary theory – that some 15 billion years from our space/time coordinates is equal to 6 equivalent earth days at the inception space/time coordinates. There is no conflict with Genesis 1.

I go a bit further than Schroeder in asserting that God is the author of Genesis and the only observer of His own Creation and thus we must look at those Scriptures from the inception perspective until Adam is banished to mortality at the end of chapter 3, at which point the space/time perspective changes to Adamic man.

Therefore, I assert that the first three chapters of Scripture deal with the creation not only of the physical realm but the spiritual as well (Gen 1:1, Gen 2:4-5) For Scriptural evidence I point to these:

The tree of life is in the center of Eden (Gen 2:9) and Paradise (Rev 2:7).

God created the plants and herbs before they were in the earth (Gen 2:4-5)

God’s curse to Adam was that he would die in the day (Gen 2:17) he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil v that he died at age 930 (Gen 5:5) and that 1,000 years to man (Adamic perspective) should be understood as a “day” to God (Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8, Epistle of Barnabas, Enoch, et al).

The intersection or “types” in the physical realm and spiritual realm: Temple, Ark, Eden.

hosepipe has indicated that his Christian view is not represented on the above, i.e. that Adam is a metaphor, Creation week is a metaphor, etc.

In sum - though I do not recall seeing a poll on the subject - it seems to me that most Christians and Jews would embrace the Intelligent Design hypothesis over Young Earth Creationism.

404 posted on 07/01/2007 8:18:07 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Most creationists are not YEC and have no problem with the age of the universe though they may have disputes among themselves about the origin of man and/or other biological life (from a previous post of mine:)

I have been posting on these threads for at least five years, and I am certain that most of the anti-evolution posters consider the most important things at stake to be the age of the earth and common descent -- concepts accepted by ID advocates.

There's a simple test of this. Just ask the people lurking or posting on this thread to check in and tell us if they accept common descent and a multi-billion year old earth and are, perhaps, merely concerned about the technical details of how variation occurs.

405 posted on 07/01/2007 8:28:30 AM PDT by js1138
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