[narby]

[Ok. Let's say God was the "first cause". Now you tell me what was the "first cause" that created God.] This is old hat, narby. Something is eternal. You're not well-read on this kind of reasoning, or are you?

Oh, now I get it. I must be "well read" in order to be so confused that the universe needs a creator, but the creator does not.

I suppose it takes a real intellectual to be able to understand something so illogical.

[MEGoody]

Nevertheless, something/someone is eternal, having no beginning or no end. Is it your belief that eternal ‘thing’ is God, or is it matter/energy?

[Diamond]

Oh, now I get it. I must be "well read" in order to be so confused that the universe needs a creator, but the creator does not.

If you don't make a basic category error there is no need for confusion. If every thing that begins to exist must have a cause then the proposition that the universe needs a Creator but the Creator does not makes perfect sense, because God is not a thing. God is a Being.

I think the universe must have had a beginning for several reasons, not the least of which is that if it did not it would have already ceased to exist by now.

The discussion of whether matter/energy created itself and and evolved into intelligence, or whether universe was created by the Word of God is not to change the subject because one of the major controversies here is whether matter/energy alone is a sufficent cause for the life and the universe that we observe.

Cordially,