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To: js1138

“....Actually, that’s not true at all. Directed evolution is explored all the time in the laboratory, and animal breeding produces changes in body form that are greater than the differences between many natural species....”

I never said that there wasn’t an active effort underway to explore evolution in the lab. I know that. What I said was that we’ve tried to reproduce certain aspects of evolution — in the lab — and have not succeeded.

“Evolution” must account for common descent of all life across all time. Considering the complexity of just one single organism, never mind the complexity of the natural — and purposeful — systems in which living thing reside, that’s a pretty tall order for something as small as chance to explain.

Animal breeding is hardly a worthy bit of evidence to throw up to support an endeavor of that magnitude. Now...interestingly...while the ability of intelligent human beings to deliberately breed a cow with sturdier conformity is unworthy to support the “evolution by chance and totally without purpose” argument, it does show that with purpose and design in mind a knowledgeable designer can successfully create variation that serves a goal.

“...Your objection to chance assumes that evolution has a goal, [...] Evolution is a drunkard’s walk, ....”

No, I object to evolution because it is a notion that necessarily assumes no goal, when I believe creation clearly speaks to “goals”. Despite the fact that all of the earth’s living and nonliving systems (including the organisms that live in them) have been clearly organized to function in complex (not chaotic) systems and cycles, evolutionary theorists continue to stubbornly assert that “chance” is responsible for everything and that the way things are today is really...nothing more than a happy set of accidents.

Or, I suppose, to extend your own analogy...The drunkard, despite not being in possession of his faculties and unable to avoid falling off the sidewalk and be hit by a car at any given moment, has still somehow managed to paint a set of beautiful masterpieces, build an amazing series of complex architectural features that are uniquely well-suited in both form and function, and design a vast array of complementary and supplementary systems and networks...all while wearing a blindfold.

It’s the blind watchmaker explanation, recast with a bottle of Thunderbolt. It just doesn’t work.

“First of all, chance is not a requirement for evolution. Evolution could occur if genetic change followed a sequence rather than occurring randomly. ...”

But we’re NOT talking about genetic change following a sequence - that diverts the discussion down a philosophical rabbit trail. Despite your restatement of the 4 mechanisms of change using more technical jargon, you didn’t say anything I hadn’t already covered. Nor does anything there really diminish the role of mutation as the implicit or explicit starting point for evolutionary change.

Mutation remains the first mechanism of evolution - followed by some combination of genetic drift, migration, and natural selection. Mutation, as I have already said...rather patiently...is about chance. Evolution is premised upon chance.

“...But you know all this, because you have a degree in biology. ...”

Oh. Look. A potshot. Again.


440 posted on 06/26/2007 10:43:48 AM PDT by lifebygrace
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To: lifebygrace
The drunkard, despite not being in possession of his faculties and unable to avoid falling off the sidewalk and be hit by a car at any given moment, has still somehow managed to paint a set of beautiful masterpieces, build an amazing series of complex architectural features that are uniquely well-suited in both form and function, and design a vast array of complementary and supplementary systems and networks...all while wearing a blindfold.

The drunkard does not do the designing, and you continue to assume that evolutionary change has to produce results specified in advance.

Evolution does account for common descent. Everyone having the capacity and training to understand molecular biology -- including evolution critics like Behe and Yockey -- knows there is no rational reason to doubt common descent.

If you wish to argue that variation and selection are insufficient to account for common descent, then you are under some obligation to describe a mechanism that prevents varieties from diverging indefinitely from their original type.

Evolution does not predict that the algorithm would produce the same results on a second run, so evolution is not obligated to explain the exact list of things currently alive. All that evolution seeks to describe is the process by which a branching tree forms.

448 posted on 06/26/2007 10:57:38 AM PDT by js1138
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