I meant to say, "ONE is either an education major OR a math/science/English/business/communications/etc. major."
I wasn't guessing what YOU are! Now I know why we're to use the "one" instead of "you."
:-)
MY BAD!
Posted on 06/15/2007 10:38:16 AM PDT by grundle
The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) compiles loads of statistics on education. The NCES "Digest of Education Statistics" Table 136 shows average SAT scores by student characteristics for 2001. Students who select education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any major (964). Math majors have the highest (1174).
(Excerpt) Read more at jewishworldreview.com ...
What was the population of any group taking the GRE? I would guess that more people taking the GRE in other areas (math, engineering, etc) would tend to be the cream of the crop. I can't speak to the 80's, but ALL teachers here MUST get a Master's Degree within 10 years of being hired. I don't know when getting a Masters became a requirement vs strongly encouraged vs no one cared.
If you are comparing ALL teachers (or even a majority) to the rest of GRE takers, I'm sure you will find huge disparities.
YOU stated that MOST ed majors and MOST experienced teachers are failing their PRAXIS tests. Show me the failing percentages.
I’m not sure how they do it here now, truthfully. I got a B.S. in my field, worked in it for over a decade, then got an M.Ed. while I was becoming certified to teach.
I know that I took some elem. ed. courses at one point, and they were incredibly easy.
Here in Kentucky, elementary ed majors have an "area of emphasis". Typically, that requires 6 or 8 classes in a subject area. My emphasis (along with practically everyone I knew) was English. Because so many English classes are required for (the university) general ed, it was the quickest way to graduate.
Middle school candidates choose two areas of emphasis. High school candidates get certified in English, Math, Earth/Space Sciences, Chemistry, Physics, Biological Science or Social Studies.
I'll agree with the classes being incredibly easy. We did a fair amount of work, but none of it was particularly hard. It helped, of course, that my profs were very much into rubrics which gave very clear information about what was required for a particular grade.
That has some merit, but there’s no getting around the fact that getting an A in an Education course meant pleasing the instructor — whereas in other subjects it meant actually studying. It was the Education majors who had time to go to protests.
When I took the GRE, neither I nor the labor market considered me cream of the crop....
What do you mean by pleasing the instructor? Education is no more or less subjective than English lit. or History. All three of those majors are different than a hard math or science.
I think there would be more qualified teachers.
I never thought merit pay or the merit system, rather than the union way/mediocrity, would work back when I wasn’t involved in education/teaching. I started thinking/believing in merit back when I first started teaching and saw just how many teachers shouldn’t be handling our most valuable resource (children).
If teaching was respected as a profession (get rid of the union and all its perks and mediocrity), hold teachers to the same standards as we hold other white collar/college educated professions, get rid of tenure, make it a competitive field both in the college major and in the profression, I think we’d have more qualified teachers.
There’d be enough teachers, who still think of the profession as a noble one while still making the path to certification harder and then continually holding them accountable, just like every other profression that isn’t protected by the union. Our students have a dumbed down curriculum, not just the teachers to blame for that, and we have teachers that aren’t qualified, yet most can’t get fired unless they commit a crime (and even then it’s up in the air). We have excellent teachers but they’re lumped in with all the rest (per the union and so called fairness). They’re encouraged to maintain the status quo. They’re not encouraged to continually succeed, improve.
We always hear about how we need teachers but we don’t have the jobs available in the suburban/great districts at least here in NJ). We have a shortage in the inner city schools. We’re not getting the best and brightest there nor are we getting them in the better working environment of the affluent school districts.
Teaching should be held in the highest regard (these are our kids, our most valuable resource) and it isn’t. I think the educational path (college) is partly to blame. More blame falls on the Union. Great teachers are valued and lumped in with mediocre and down right awful teachers. That’s a huge problem, imo.
Get rid of the Union (teachers’ union), promote a rigorous educational path (college courses), test teachers regularly - like most professions have to adhere to standards, make those tests mirror the background and experience.
Make the state boards and NTE (as it was called when I took them) and now Praxis reflect the knowledge. Keep teachers accountable (once you get tenure, it doesn’t stop there, the job security shouldn’t stop there) and constantly educating themselves. Reward those who succeed, fire those who don’t. Just like in almost all profressions.
Teachers aren’t going to be valued, considered profressionals until we get rid of the union and all its perks. Many wonderful teachers are leaving the profression because their education, intelligence, experience, success, isn’t valued or isn’t held above the most mediocre teacher. All are the same - it’s a socialist system.
Get rid of the union first, the socialist system/mentality in the field (and it will be difficult to do that since even some of the best teachers stick with the tenure/union perks), make parents accountable for their childrens behavior while in the classroom.
Get the Union out of the schools and the rest will follow, imo.
What state do you live in, teach in? I honestly don’t know of any state in the US that requires anything above a mid 60 for passing. NY, PA and NJ don’t require more than a mid 60 at most, mid 50 at least. NJ requires a higher passing grade than PA. Either way, both are less than 70%.
Most ed majors in their senior year, after student teacher, fail the test the first time and have to take it a 2nd time.
All teachers in NJ, or those who wish to teach in NJ/receive certification in NJ regardless of their certification in other states, must take the Praxis test in order to receive NJ Certification now. Current teachers in NJ were exempt in certain areas. Any person applying for NJ Certification had to take the Praxis in order to receive NJ Certification. And the passing grade is 63 or so. It was one of the highest scores required to pass. And the Praxis is an easy test. All of the Praxis tests are easy. I aced them, all the ones I took, and I’m not the smartest and I excelled in areas I’m clueless about for the most part.
I bought the booklets/packets less than a month before the testing. I hadn’t been in the classroom as a teacher for over a decade. I was shocked by my scores. I heard how hard the tests were, how unfair. Any teacher who couldn’t pass the Praxis (and any college student in education) shouldn’t be teaching at all. A person with a high school diploma and nothing more could pass the Praxis. Teachers who have been teaching for 30 years, more or less, can’t pass the Praxis. That’s unacceptable imo. Ed majors in college, taking the test, have a difficult time passing. That’s unacceptable. It’s not a hard test. None of the Praxis tests are hard by any stretch of the imagination. The only ones who complain about the Praxis are those who can’t pass it and no teacher should be incapable of passing it. No one in our colleges, especially ed majors, should have trouble passing this test. High School honors students could pass this test.
You keep making these statements, but offer no proof to back them up. Some percentage of test takers fail. We all know that. You claim that MOST ed majors and MOST experienced teachers fail the test.
The test is designed so that some percentage fails. Even if we raise standards for ed schools, some percentage will fail. No matter what. Because that is what the test is supposed to do.
Yes, I have a lot of contempt for English lit. profs as well.
The unions aren't very strong down here, but tenure is supported (at least in part) because so many of the smaller districts are very political, and a good teacher would not want to be fired because a school board member wanted a job for his/her relative or because a school board member's child failed that teacher's class.
You mention that there is a problem with finding good teachers for inner city schools, which suggests that the problems in those districts are not related to the teachers, necessarily.
I do agree that there ought to be rewards for great teachers, and I agree that the teacher ed. system is at least partly to blame for the low regard in which teachers are held. I suspect it's also partially because teaching (especially in lower grades) has traditionally been a "woman's field".
Making parents accountable for their children's behavior I think is also going to be difficult, although I'd like to see it done. It seems to me that one of the major reasons discipline is so bad now is due to lawsuits and fear of lawsuits. On the other hand, citizens have always thought the schools ought to be able to "fix" everything wrong with families and society, although schools historically have not been too successful at that task.
It's a difficult situation.
I agree with everything you just posted.
There is no shortage of teachers, that I know of, in a few districts in NJ and PA. It’s almost impossible to get a job in the district I live in now. It’s considered an excellent district for both the teachers and students. Unfortunately, the standards for both are far below what I’d like to see across the board.
I did a quick look on the link you provided. Honestly, I have no real idea what it’s like in other parts of the country (including Georgia). The Union is huge here. My brother (a retired teacher now) was a liason or the go to guy before it reached lawsuit level. I’d have to check with him for the correct term. The philly union was the AFT (and when I worked in the suburbs at this time, our’s was the NEA, which my brother had nothing nice to say about). He eventually quit the union job, taught full time again just so he could retire. He was disgusted with the union - he’s anti union now.
We have the same problem here, although it’s not as blatant, concerning who gets hired or how not to step on the toes of a kid whose parent is on the school board.
Discipline in the schools (even the catholic ones) is basically non-existent now (around here). We fear disciplining any child because of the backlash from parents, administration. You say in your last paragraph everything I haven’t said well.
I met a sub teacher a few years ago and he was never pro-union but made a great point when I dissed the union. He said, with all the lawsuits today, the teacher union is necessary even if just for that.
Teachers shouldn’t have to raise these kids but they should expect good behavior in their classrooms and should be allowed to manage a classroom. I had a parent question, which she was allowed to do imo, my classroom management skills because I called her on the phone and told her her son was disruptive and it wasn’t fair to the other kids in the class. We weren’t allowed to send them to the office anymore (we had to deal with it). I gave him countless lunch detentions, after school detentions. He didn’t care. He was physically violent (but because he was on meds, had a hard home life, etc. everyone else was supposed to just deal with it). He bit a teacher. I told him if he bit me, I wouldn’t bite him back but only because I didn’t want to be sued, however I’d make sure his social life was miserable and my husband would make sure he was scared for his life outside of the school setting. So I called this mother every time her kid acted out in my class. She didn’t appreciated being interrupted at work. I invited her to come any time to sit in during class. Nothing was ever done but once the kid reached high school (and in this affluent district we have an alternative high school - he’s there now) they didn’t have to legally tolerate that behavior. I had another supposedly violent kid (he was bad) and his mom refused to allow him to be placed in the BD class at another school - he was bright academically. Huge anger management issues (blamed on his father). For some reason, she trusted me after our initial interview, and I called her often while her kid was throwing stuff (chairs, punches, etc). He was in 8th grade at the time and I told him that this wouldn’t work well for him in high school where we had the alternative school (he was thrown out of the middle school and received home instruction - at all of our taxpayer expense but allowed back in when his mom threatened/started a lawsuit). The difference is the parent wanted her child to succeed and did everything in her power to help that happen without blaming others. I was invited to his 8th grade graduation two years ago and every single member of his extended family thanked me. It was nice but the reason he succeeded and still continues to succeed in the high school is because his mother allowed me to do my job, did her job, and held the kid accountable for doing his job. All this happened in an affluent area/district. The good or the one who succeeded and the bad, the one who continues to fail.
I may come off as bashing teachers or parents but I do believe we have to work together - hold the kids accountable for their behavior, too. I like that there are private, catholic, etc. schools and homeschoolers. I’m not saying they’re great but they provide alternatives to public schools.
I’d like to see public schools competing for students. Allow students to attend/parents to choose which public school to attend.
It may be different where you live/teach (GA). Here in the Northeast (I call it the liberal, socialist region), our system sucks, and continuing to throw money at it isn’t helping.
I suggest you research the test, the passing scores for each state. I apologize for not being clear as I’m sure we’d most likely agree that public education is atrocious in this area (NJ/PA/NY - those are the only states I’m familiar with).
For example, the passing score (for any of the Praxis tests) in NJ is a 63 (it may be 64 or 65 now but regardless it’s in the 60’s). I have a problem with that being the passing score. A score in the 60’s doesn’t even compute to a “B” or an 80%. I know of many teachers right out of school (or seniors taking this test) who failed and had to take it again. I work with a teacher who still hasn’t passed the test. IMO if you can’t pass a test in your area, by a less than 70%, you shouldn’t be in that field, teaching being this one.
I’m going by the passing scores in this area, the scores considered passing per state. Each state has its own passing score.
There are tons of teachers I worked with or currently work with, teaching for many years, who are required to take the content area Praxis. They haven’t been able to pass it, according to the state passing grade. Personally and professionally, I have a problem with that. Everyone with a college degree should be able to pass (according to state passing grades) this test.
I’m not going to provide links (don’t know how to do that anyway). Check out the test results (google it) per state and the required passing grade (each state is different). The passing grade for NJ and PA is appalling (it’s so low) and many don’t pass on the first try.
All standardized tests have a failing percentage rate built into the test. Anyone with a college degree in a particular program of study should pass the tests required.
I’ll correct my statements to say “most ed majors I know, most experienced teachers who are now forced to take the praxis, aren’t passing on the first try” I worried about the test before I took it, and to me it was incredibly easy (after I took it and did better than just the passing score required).
You’re not offering any proof to the contrary either so I guess that makes us even.
Nice try. BS in microbiology, AS in computer science, masters work in political science and MS in information systems technology. Not all Ed majors at the time were incompetent nor were all of them there because it was easier. Over the years, however, I have come in contact with a lot of my kid’s teachers who were completely incompetent and who had less knowledge of their subjects than a lot of their students. The only close connection is that after a long military career and 10 years in a corporate job I am now on the faculty of a small university.
When I received my certification, we weren't required to take the Praxis, but instead something called the Teacher Competency Test, so I'll admit that I don't have any personal experience with the Praxis.
In our area, it wouldn't do much good to have schools competing for students, because many students would have to go to their local schools due to transportation issues in any case. I can see where it might work in some areas.
We had an inservice once where it was recommended to keep calling the parents, because eventually they'd make the kid behave if only to get rid of the nuisance phone calls.
Our standards aren't as high as I would like to see either, and actually when compared to the NAEP our state standards are some of the lowest in the nation, which is pathetic. From what I've heard, we don't have as much problem with rampant liberalism as they do in the north, however. The south is pretty conservative in most places, particularly in more rural areas.
I meant to say, "ONE is either an education major OR a math/science/English/business/communications/etc. major."
I wasn't guessing what YOU are! Now I know why we're to use the "one" instead of "you."
:-)
MY BAD!
Lets not be silly and think low SAT scores necessarily means low intelligence.
It might mean low motivation, for example.
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