Replies

“Which explains why Clinton and Carter did almost everything right, of course.”

No. I said “But with all that info available, the threshold for screwing up is most likely significantly smaller than the average person.” This doesn’t make them a deity, although many people seem to think it does. What Clinton did in his disgraceful regime was no mistake. With the information at hand, he crafted the situation so that he and his “partner” directly benefitted. Carter is a soft headed liberal moron so what he thinks is a good idea and what’s actually good for the country tends to diverge significantly. At least with the President the point merges much, much more often than not. Of course he’s still beholden to big government policies (like he has since he became Governor), but so has it been with our Presidents and the American people since FDR came up with his stupid domestic programs.

And that’s the point. He’s not perfect, he made mistakes. But all of this was done in good faith. He looked at the renomination situation, saw what he saw, and said “I hate to let Pace go but he has no chance of renomination and the troops need another one like him ASAP. Mullens, up to bat.”

The information available to the President can be used for good or for ill. Clinton and Carter are bad because because they usedd the information to serve himself and an agenda, respectively. I have yet to see how the President personally benefits from anything he does in office, especially considering his future will consist of .... um...

brush clearing...

PSAs...

...and speeches. Yeah. I guess that’s what a corrupt oligopoloist master of the world does. He clears brushes. Which I suppose isn’t as bad as skydiving. Now that’s REALLY Bourgeosie.

Oooh. That’s so scary.

“the electorate should be able to trust that a candidate means what a candidate says on the campaign trail.”

Correct.

“his command the US would not engage in nation building”

And we see how well that worked after the Soviets left Afghanistan. It just adopted Jeffersonian Democracy and lead the Islamic world as a model of a prosperous nation that coexists peacefully with other peoples and religion.

No wait. It was taken by a bunch of scumbags who established one of the most despotic regimes the world has ever known and allied with other scumbags who think that the whole world should look like Afghanistan. Long story short, we lost 3000 people because “nation building is a bad idea, it’s better to let them kill each other”.

Right...

I guess we should have just left Germany and Japan to rot after the wars? It worked so well with the Treaty of Versailles. Adolf who?

Nation building is now an integral part of warfare. The security and stability of nations in the aftermath of wars isn’t just a humanitarian issue, it is a security issue. Anyone who said that nation building is unnecessary is not exactly thinking things through. And that included the President. 9/11 woke him and most of us up to the unpleasant reality before hand, but apparently some people keep turning the snooze alarm off.

Do you think if a violent gang moved into the neighborhood and the police succeeded in destroying the gang along with damaging a significant part of the neighborhood that the city shouldn’t at least pay for some of the damages and restitution? If the city doesn’t compensate for the property damage, the people living there will become resentful at the city and the police. And we all know how delapidated areas attract unsavory characters. Another gang will be back, possibly demagouging on the poor treatment on the police thus gaining sympathizers and recruits. The police come back, destroy gangs, break stuff, and leave without even saying “sorry for your ancestral home.” People get angrier and another gang moves in, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

This is the exact scenario in service in the real world. Leaving Iraq as is will result in a nation torn between two “gangs” (Iran and al Qaeda) and Iraqis won’t soon forget that when they needed help most, Uncle Sam just blow in, smash the bad guys (YAY!), left (Wait, wha’?), and left them to fend for themselves (%@#&*@%^&*!!!!). Now they can do two things, mine their business and barely survive, or join one of the two bad guys.

Can you say “terror central”?

” and that he would not grant amnesty to illegals.”

He believes it isn’t and no amount of screaming that it is will convince him. See, it’s like how the lefties keep screaming it’s a “war for oil!” and we ignore them because we “believe” that it’s not. (That, and the fact that oil executives aren’t any richer than before and that oil is still at a high price would promptly contradict that stupid thesis but I digress.) As strongly as libs “believe” it’s “for oil” and we “believe” it’s not, so is the President and his opponents “beliefs” on this issue.

Just as surely as you “believe” it’s amnesty, the President “believes” it isn’t. And to be honest, I’m inclined to “believe” same. The bill said that illegals would have to pay fines, apply for visas, get in the back of the line behind legal applicants, and even apply from their home countries.

The clearest definition of amnesty in this debate is automatic citizenship. This is nowhere near automatic. It’s not even close to amnesty.

The intent is clear. He wants them to jump through all the hoops and wave all the right bells and whistles. It hardly seems like amnesty. But to the opposing side, anything short of deportation is amnesty. Fair enough. This all goes back to what I said about “opinions not principles”. The President believes this is sufficient you believe it’s not. Whatever bakes your tortilla.

Most importantly, his idea of immigration reform was broadcasted since he was the governor of Texas. It hasn’t changed one iota. People always go on and on about how much they want a man of principle and character to stick to his guns, someone to fulfill his campaign promises. Except for the nation building part, he has pretty much stuck to his promises, on this issue and others. The same reason he’s fighting for this bill is the same reason he chose to fight in Iraq, Afghanistan, push tax cuts, appoint the justices he did (including Harriet Miers), be pro-life, etc, etc, etc. He has beliefs, just like anyone of us. His core hasn’t change. He hasn’t changed. Just because they don’t mesh completely is no reason to crucify him. He actually stood by his promises and his principles, yet for that he gets nothing but grief from both sides.
I guess people are okay with a principled person as long as they march lock step and not have any ideas of their own.

Before moving on to your next point, I need to say this re: immigration. Deportation and walls are overrated. People scale walls all the time and the famous walls of history have all been breached one way or another. Jericho, China , the castle fortifications of Europe, Berlin. You name it, someone found a way around it. Israel’s wall might be the only oneto stood the tests of time but that would make it an exception, not the rule.

For determined illegals, nothing, nothing is going to keep those deported from coming back in again. As long as America is better than their country, has more opportunities, or heck even allow them to say “This government bites!” without disappearing into the next world, people are going to come here, legal or not. When the average Mexican illegal gets sent back from El Norte, the next thing he’s going to do when he gets up is, you guessed it, go to El Norte.

If the Berlin wall, with landmines, gun turrets, dogs, and razor wire couldn’t stop people from coming over, what hope could our border wall, (no matter how tall, reinforced, or high tech it is) could have against equally determined people?

Fences and deportations are no panacea, especially considering the fact that illegals don’t just come in through the South. That big region north of Maine isn’t just Little America ya know. If you think the South border is porous then the North is nearly non-existent. Plus, 50% of illegals are OTMs who got here via other passages.

Before anyone could accuse me of being a supporter of a bill, I couldn’t care less about the bill, except for how ugly the debate has become. It could be good, it could be bad, I don’t care. Illegal immigration is the symptom of a disease (well, several) and while everyone’s going nuts over the symptoms, the true culprits are being ignored in the place of scapegoats. A complacent population, assinine labor restrictions/thug unions, poor quuality of life in other nations, liberal hate America/whitey suck/reconquista rhetoric, our dependence on welfare, DEMon party corruption and vote fraud; all of these and more are the reasons for our illegal immigration problems. Unless we fix these problems, the borders could be as tight as Fort Knox, it’s not going to mean a thing. Illegals will still come in, there’ll still be fraud, crime, demand for illegal labor, etc.

Moving on...

“To say that criticism of the President is unwarranted is contrary to everything this country stands for.”

True. But throughout this “debate” (I’ve seen more beneficial and useful autopsies of dessicated corpses, believe me it’s not pretty but it looks a hell a lot better than this ludicrous meltdown) the number of destructive criticism far, far outweighs anything constructive to be said on this issue.

Somehow, if somebody called me a “traitor, closet communist, or in bed with Mexico/Vincente” I’d probably not listen to what they have to say and continue on my merry way. Then again, if someone called your team “nativists, closet racists, and in bed with Buchanan” you’d be less inclined to litsten. Mas, non?

“I am simply using a modern forum, unknown to the Founding Fathers, to petition my government for redress of grievances. That you do not like my opinion does not delegitimize it in any way.”

Right. And the same applies to me. I see things I don’t believe are correct, and I “publish” my opinion in my attempt to persuade bystanders. If I convert a critic, great. But that’s not my goal, my concern is to persuade the uninitiated not to convert ideologues.

I hate arguments, which is depressing because my chosen field is politics. :e

“Hero-worship all you wish;”

If not denigrating a man in his time of hardship and need and not assuming the absolute worse about him is hero worship, then so be it. I rather “worship” this man then be one of the thronging masses frothing to run knives through his back when the very real enemies of this Republic are laughing at the thought of their mortal enemies tearing each other apart.

Hell, if being conservative means establishing purity tests, accusing allies of treason, alienating people, screaming that the President of an entire nation better heel to them and them only, then I’m a full blown socialist.

But I know better. This behavior is not conservative. It’s not American. It is the antithesis of these values. I can’t ever imagine Pres. Reagan would say some of the ugly things said against Pres. Bush in this ongoing lunacy.

But then again, Pres. Reagan did get his share of criticisms, objective and otherwise. Perhaps he’d have a better understanding than most what it means to be criticized unconstructively and unfairly.

You may not be responsible for the nastiness, but others are and it has gone way, way, out of control. The signal to noise ratio is overwhelming. You may be the signal, but there is a ton of noise out there, none of it good. And I aim to contrast the noise with some signal.

“But when this or any other President is wrong, I will call him on it. That is my right and my duty...The President is wrong as wrong can be on this immigration bill.””

As is your right. As is mine to point out that those attacking him unfairly are wrong as wrong can be.

Ya know, funny story. If you guys put as much fight in the renomination of Pace as you did in the Immigration reform bill, you might actually reverse course. I’m sure that if the President’s Congressional sources and the GOP politicos tell him that “We could win this!”, the President’s going to go “SWEET! I have a good chance of getting Pace back!” Then the renomination wouldn’t be such a lost cause.

Just a suggestion.