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To: Borges

they may have been here, but they were primitive savages. Columbus brought civilization to America.


72 posted on 06/05/2007 9:14:29 PM PDT by balch3
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To: balch3

I would say so. But I don’t think te Polynesians introducing chickens suggests some sort of civilization. We brought the horses though. Earlier they had to run to deliver messages cross country.


73 posted on 06/05/2007 9:22:46 PM PDT by Borges
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To: balch3
they may have been here, but they were primitive savages. Columbus brought civilization to America.

Columbus' voyage brought barbarism to the civilizations of the Americans.

The lust for god and gold, and the murder and destruction they left behind, showed the conquistadors for the barbarians that they were.

Civilization did not arrive until a couple of centuries later.

At least the Americas were spared the Spanish Inquisition. Or is that the "civilization" you were referring to?

74 posted on 06/05/2007 9:36:57 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: balch3
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/thor/balsa-raft.php

The first record of a Peruvian Balsa raft antedates the actual discovery of the Inca Empire. When Francisco Pizarro left the Panama Isthmus in 1526 on his second voyage of discovery down the Pacific coast of South America; his expedition found Peruvian merchants sailors at sea long before he discovered their country.

His Pilot was sailing ahead to explore the coast southwards near the equator, when off northern Ecuador his ship suddenly met another sailing vessel of almost equal size, coming in the opposite direction.

Native Balsa Raft Sketch by F.E. Paris (1841) showing construction of a native balsa raft from the north-west coast of South America. The maximum length of raft is 80-90 feet, maximum width of a raft is 25-30 feet with a freight capacity of 20-25 tons.

The raft was manned by 20 Indian men and women, 11 of whom were thrown overboard, four were left with the raft, and two men and three women were retained by the Spanish to be trained as interpreters for later voyages. The Spaniards estimated the raft capacity at 36 tons, only a fraction less than their own vessel.

Their report stated that it carried masts and yards of very fine wood, and cotton sails in the same shape and manner as on their own ships. It had very good rigging of hemp, stronger than their own rope, and mooring stones for anchors. Many similar accounts described rafts made of long and light logs, always of odd number, 5,7,9 or 11, tied together with cross beams and covered by a deck. The larger ones had the ability to carry up to 50 men and three horses, and had a special cooking place on board in a thatched hut. The cargoes often included salt, another proof of their seaworthiness.

These rafts are navigated simply by raising and lowering centreboards inserted in the cracks between the logs. By raising and lowering these boards in different parts of the Balsa raft, the natives could perform on their raft all the manoeuvres of a regularly built and well rigged European vessel, and obtain speeds of 4 to 5 knots. Tiny models of the rafts have been found in graves, along with carved centreboards, near Arica in northern Chile. The sail was probably know on the Peruvian coast earlier than pottery and weaving.

(So, who's the primitive savage, hmmm?)

79 posted on 06/05/2007 9:51:13 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM!)
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