Giuliani"s Unwelcome Birthday Guests

The New York Observer ^ | 5/29/07 | Azi Paybarah

[SUSSA]

Here’s an unwelcome birthday gift for Rudy Giuliani, as he travels around the city raising money: protests from fire fighters and family members of September 11th victims.

They've shown up in the past at Giuliani's presidential events. Today, they’re gathering in Bay Ridge, and they have plans to follow him nationwide starting sometime around January, according to Jim Riches, a deputy chief with the fire department whose son was killed in the World Trade Center attacks.

“We have all the UFA, the UFOA, and the fire members are all behind us -- the International Association of Fire Fighters,” said Riches. “And we’re going to be out there today to let everybody know that he’s not the hero that he says he is.”

The group’s complaints center on the faulty radios used by the fire department that day and what they say was a lack of coordination at Ground Zero.

And Riches disputes the notion that Giuliani provided any form of leadership on September 11 or in the days following.

“If somebody can tell me what he did on 9/11 that was so good, I’d love to hear it. All he did was give information on the TV”

“He did nothing,” Riches continued. “He stood there with a TV reporter and told everyone what was going on. And he got it from everybody else down at the site.”

[SUSSA]

If the Unions are agin him, I’m for him

Did you vote for Kerry and against Bush because the firefighters union was for Bush?

[Jake The Goose]

Sorry everyone - I owe each of you replies - running a little hard the past 24.

Each of you make arguments opposing Rudy - and each argument has a touch of merit, and a touch of exaggeration - in my mind.

Let me address Rudy's participation on 9/11 with a Katrina analogy - he led when when others fled. (my Jesse Jackson impression - no charge)

Now - if I may - onto the bigger issue - FR finding someone who is going to take the nomination away from Rudy.

I think there are only two possibilities (Mitt or Fred). I agree others are good men - but they stand little of no chance of getting any separation. I will not allow myself to even consider John McCain - his is a slow sinking ship.

Fred appears ready to announce an exploratory committee - HMM - fire in the belly? - is he waiting too long - are am I just impatient? I actually like his waiting - I would love to be a fly on his wall to see what he's up to everyday.

Mitt - the Mormon thing. My vast knowledge of the Morman Church is pathetically weak - so I don't care about that at all. He seems solid on the issues and he is one hard working man.

I would like to see a 3-5 man race ASAP possible with the next debate demanding each man talk for a MINIMUM of 3 minutes on each question - not 30 seconds - that's too easy. Make them talk and think and articulate at length.

There is plenty of time to defeat Rudy if that is destiny.

One more thought - the GOP has to start considering the number of Democrats who will NOT vote for Hillary. I think there is a vast pool that no one in the MSM is talking about.

Keep up the battle folks - the GOP will come out on top.

[P-40]

I don’t think there is ever going to be a way to answer that question. It has been studied in quite some detail though. If the evacuation orders had gotten out better then no doubt more would have been saved. Had the significance on some of what was told to 911 operators or from the helicopters pilots been reported and understood...maybe many more. I am sure there are many people that face these questions every single day and always will.

[LibKill]

Ah gee, as I remember it Rootie carried the island of manhattan to safety on his own back.

muahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

He did nothing and the firefighters are right, union or no union, they are right about him.

He's an empty suit, a stuffed DEMOCRAT.

[SUSSA]

You’re right and the sooner they Swift Boat his sorry liberal butt the better.

[Suzy Quzy]

GOONS....UNION THUGS~~ Clinton;s minions are out in full force.

[SUSSA]

The union supported Bush against Kerry. See post 41.

[Suzy Quzy]

When you are FOLLOWING candidates to their functions....you are a GOON! I could give a rat’s ass if a union supported REAGAN....He’s dead and that was 30 years ago....besides the Clintons probably had them support Bush to make sure that Kerrey didn’t win to clear the path for Hillary in 08.

[miss marmelstein]

I’d rather look at his legs for four years than Hillary’s. Reason enough for me to vote!

[SUSSA]

When you are FOLLOWING candidates to their functions....you are a GOON!

So the Swift Boat Vets were goons for following Kerry to his functions?

[Suzy Quzy]

The SAME people went to all of Kerrey’s things?

[Cailleach]

he almost shares a birthday with me.

[Smokin' Joe]

I would like to read a summary, thanks.

While some hand sets will not do well from inside a building, with the sheer number of high-rise buildings there, you'd think that would be just part of the specifications for personal (as opposed to vehicle mounted) radios,

Even a channel set aside for 'announcements' in the event of a major incident, to direct responding units to a specific frequency or one of several frequencies reserved for major incident response using a 'looped' message would have helped sort things out.

[P-40]

Can you download the 9/11 Commission Report and search for the word 'repeater'? (www.9-11commission.gov) That will give you a pretty straight shot to the communication problems as well as some good diagrams.

These two staff statements are also pretty good on detail about how it all tied together.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_13.pdf

and

http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_14.pdf

[SUSSA]

The group did.

[ellery]

I agree with you that part of Giuliani's job on 9/11 was to reassure people on-camera. However, he screwed up royally on his other job, which was to ensure that the police and fire depts. were working jointly. Radios aside, emergency center location aside, Giuliani's own testimony about 9/11 indicated that he visited the impromptu command post the fire dept. set up, and then took Kerik off to establish a separate police command post elsewhere. This was in direct contradiction to his own emergency response plans, which emphasized the critical importance of a joint fire dept./police dept. response to an emergency. Emergency responders died that day because of Giuliani's complete failure to follow the most important part of his own established emergency response procedures.

So yes, he did the camera part of his job that day extremely well. But he utterly failed on the management part of his duties.

[calcowgirl]

I hate to point anyone to the NY Times for anything, but they did a fairly indepth analysis and did 100s of interviews and reviewed the emergency communication tapes from that day. The five part series is posted at firehouse.com (there are also links to audio and some of the interviews).

The thing that seems mose inexcusable is that Police radios were not capable of comunicating with Firefighter radios, and vice versa. There was no common emergency channel, even if those channels had failed. Police got the warning to evacuate the second building after the first one collapsed, and 21 minutes before the second building collapsed. Firefighters in the second tower never got that warning and didn't even know the first building had come down. The police and fire departments didn't even communicate with each other that day according to reports.

Here is a short excerpt from Part 1:

Minutes after the south tower collapsed at the World Trade Center, police helicopters hovered near the remaining tower to check its condition. "About 15 floors down from the top, it looks like it's glowing red," the pilot of one helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m. "It's inevitable."

Seconds later, another pilot reported: "I don't think this has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second building."

Those clear warnings, captured on police radio tapes, were transmitted 21 minutes before the building fell, and officials say they were relayed to police officers, most of whom managed to escape. Yet most firefighters never heard those warnings, or earlier orders to get out. Their radio system failed frequently that morning. Even if the radio network had been reliable, it was not linked to the police system. And the police and fire commanders guiding the rescue efforts did not talk to one another during the crisis.

Part 1 - 9/11 Exposed Deadly Flaws in Rescue Plan

Part 2 - Communications: 'Down to the Lobby,' But No One Came

Part 3 - Command: Distrust Separates Police and Fire

Part 4 - Control: Discipline Broke Down in Eagerness to Help

Part 5 - Sacrifice: 'We'll Come Down in a Few Minutes'

[steve86]

Fishing for an FR “disinvite” soon, are ya?

[TommyDale]

But Rudy was such a hero!

[calcowgirl]

There is no doubt that the emergency planning (and vision) was lacking prior to 9/11. That’s what gets me - when Rudy comes out saying things like he will not only be tough on terrorism but he can somehow protect us from it. (What was that quote again?)

History in NYC says that the decisions he made were significantly flawed. Common sense actions like having radios talk to each other were not implemented. Common sense actions like not locating an emergency center in the same complex that had been previously attacked were not considered or, if they were, were not taken seriously. As “leader” of the city, he let long-standing rivalry and animosity exist between firefighters and police, the group that is needed to work together in the event of an emergency. As commander-in-chief of NYC he had several significant failures; how can he expect to be trusted as CinC of the U.S. Armed Forces?

As the campaign gets in full gear, I have little doubt that the Dems will use the Firefighters to support their political cause which is too bad. But if that’s what it takes to get the truth out, so be it. The Giuliani Myth has been so overblown by propaganda, I’m glad they are getting their message out. And I think anyone calling those brave folks who risked their lives “goons” and other names just look foolish to anyone who has read an iota about this.

ALL firefighters are union members—and they are not all “goons”! Heck—this was a whole body of folks that were indeed voting Republican, endorsing Giuliani, endorsing Bush, etc. Because of Rudy’s response to things that day, that group is probably no longer a voting block.