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Pelosi: Climate change is a reality
Yahoo! News ^ | May 28, 2007 | GEIR MOULSON

Posted on 05/28/2007 11:16:00 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

BERLIN - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Monday she led a congressional delegation to Greenland, where lawmakers saw "firsthand evidence that climate change is a reality," and she hoped the Bush administration would consider a new path on the issue.

After meeting with German Environment Minister Sigmar Gabriel, Pelosi praised Berlin for its leadership on the issue.

Her trip comes ahead of next week's Group of Eight summit and a climate change meeting next month involving the leading industrialized nations and during a time of increased debate over what should succeed the Kyoto Protocol, a 1997 international treaty that caps the amount of carbon dioxide that can be emitted from power plants and factories in industrialized countries. It expires in 2012.

President Bush rejected that accord, saying it would harm the U.S. economy and unfair excludes developing countries like China and India from its obligations. Pelosi, who strongly disagrees with that decision and many other of Bush's environmental policies, said Friday she said she wants to work with the administration rather than provoke it.

Pelosi said she hoped Bush would be open to considering a "different way" in the future.

The California Democrat pointed to her delegation's weekend stop in Greenland, "where we saw firsthand evidence that climate change is a reality; there is just no denying it."

"It wasn't caused by the people of Greenland — it was caused by the behavior of the rest of the world," she said.

Scientists have noticed that Greenland's output of ice into the North Atlantic had increased dramatically, doubling over the decade that ended in 2005.

"We hope that we can all assume our responsibilities with great respect and that our administration will be open to listening to why it is important to go forward perhaps in a different way than we have proceeded in the past," she told reporters.

Gabriel and Chancellor Angela Merkel have made the fight against global warming a key point of Germany's presidencies of the G-8 and European Union. Still, Merkel has said that progress at the June 6-8 summit in Heiligendamm is not assured.

According to comments on a document released by the environmental group Greenpeace, the Bush administration is preparing to reject new targets on climate change at the summit. The White House declined to confirm the comments were from U.S. officials.

"We regret very much that we must so far have the impression that it is difficult to reach concrete results with the American administration," Gabriel said after meeting Pelosi.

Gabriel said industrial nations must take joint responsibility for the global warming that has occurred thus far.

"For the climate change of the future ... we need readiness on the part of China, India and today's other developing countries to take responsibility themselves," he added. "We can and will only achieve that if industrial nations do justice to their responsibility."

Pelosi, who is to meet with Merkel on Tuesday, said she wanted to "salute Germany's leadership on this very important issue," and said she hoped for a diplomatic debate within the United States.

Gabriel welcomed increasing interest in climate change at state and city level in the U.S. and hailed Pelosi's decision to set up a select committee on energy and global warming.

"This shows that there is a great deal of movement in the United States, too, and we naturally hope that we will achieve progress in Heiligendamm," he said.

The G-8 meeting has already drawn protests from antiglobalization activists; 21 demonstrators were arrested Monday during unrest that broke out after a march in Hamburg.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Germany; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: algore; carbondebits; carbonoffsets; climatechange; democrats; ecofascism; georgebush; georgesoros; globalmarshallplan; globalsocialism; globalwarming; gorbachev; gordonbrown; greencross; gw; johnkerry; kyoto; kyotoprotocol; manmademadness; nancypelosi; pelosi; progressivereligion; progressives; religionofgore; scam; spiritual; undp; undpunitednations; unitednations; weather
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This is precisely why we are losing the fight.

They have conditioned the media and the public to believe that their opponents dispute that there is climate change. In reality most people I know do not dispute the fact the climate is changing. They dispute the effects of man on the climate and how effective the proposed regulations would be.

This is what happens when you lose control of the debate.


81 posted on 05/29/2007 8:30:33 AM PDT by SlapHappyPappy
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To: RobFromGa

“I wonder why they named it Greenland in the first place. HMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm...”

Viking Marketing.


82 posted on 05/29/2007 8:32:55 AM PDT by WOSG (Stop Illegal Immigration. Call your Senator today. Senate Switchboard at 202-224-3121.))
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To: ICE-FLYER

“Funny...I have been going to Greenland and Antarctica for 13 plus years and have NOT NOTICED any such thing.”

The narrative the climate alarmists are pushing is that the glacier melts are increasing. They then extrapolate that to a geometric increase and a sudden shift. National Geographic was pushing this line of thought.

This dispite the fact that *current* rate of reduction amounts to 1/8 inch per year increase in sea level. So if it continued at the same rate it would be ... 1 foot in 1 century. hardly anything to be concerned about.


83 posted on 05/29/2007 8:38:09 AM PDT by WOSG (Stop Illegal Immigration. Call your Senator today. Senate Switchboard at 202-224-3121.))
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To: stefan10

“When i read the comments about climate change here and the use of phrase as climate change is not man-made. I always wonder why all the great scientists that support your opinion just post here while the other “real” scientists support a complete different opinion.”

FR is not a science forum per se. OTOH, there are many Climate Scientists who are not on board the climate alarmism bandwagon. responsible climate scientists are noting that (a) climate change is real, both natural and to some extent mankind’s input into it, and (b) the impacts are likely less than what is posited by the climate alarmist media.

Example:
http://climatesci.colorado.edu/2007/02/15/science-errors-or-at-best-cherrypicking-in-the-2007-ipcc-statement-for-policymakers/

http://www.climateaudit.org/

See also:

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/virtual_climate_alerts/2002/vca18.htm

http://www.evsc.virginia.edu/faculty/people/michaels.shtml

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Meltdown-Predictable-Distortion-Scientists-Politicians/dp/1930865597

Please note btw that the UN’s IPCC has been a somewhat self-selecting process, whereby the climate ‘skeptics’ have been excluded and marginalized. Science has become politicized by the climate change alarmists:

http://www.gcrio.org/USGCRP/sustain/michaels.html
“I would like to spend a few minutes showing you how difficult consensus is to form, and how consensus changes. In 1990, the United Nations produced its first scientific assessment of climate change. I was asked by my friend, Tom Karl, to review it. I was asked anonymously to review it, because at that point the issue had already been so politicized that some people who were thought to give critical reviews were not invited to the process.”

Also note that key assumptions are getting contradicted by facts, but the popular media doesnt report this:

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2006/06/01/smeared-by-krugman/
“Ten years later, Hansen published a paper in which he hypothesized that “apparently the rate of uptake by carbon dioxide sinks, either the ocean, or more likely the forests and soils, has increased.” This was not assumed in any of his scenarios. In fact, the general hypothesis has been that, as the planet warms, the ocean takes up carbon dioxide at a slower rate.”

The end result is that there is a FALSE illusion of ‘consensus’ and ‘certainty’ on the science of this topic, where neither is valid. The only certainty on this is that the hyped-up worst-case scenarios, like in any such hype machine, will not come true.

http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/04/globaloney-fears-shouldnt-dictate.html

The liberal intelligensia consensus on global warming is to pretend that there is a consensus and to shut off any debate, and hoodwink the public into thinking that any skepticism is illegitimate.”


84 posted on 05/29/2007 9:14:10 AM PDT by WOSG (Stop Illegal Immigration. Call your Senator today. Senate Switchboard at 202-224-3121.))
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To: stefan10; WOSG

The Greenland Vikings
Selected quotes from- The Last Viking: West by Northwest, by John N. Harris, M.A.(CMNS).

http://www.holloworbs.com/Greenland_vikings.htm

As the twelfth century ended, the climate reversed. Ice crept southward, all over Europe snow fell lower on the mountain slopes, upland trees died. Pack-ice cluttered the coasts of Greenland, then tightened an Arctic noose to strangle movement.

Moreover, in describing recent research carried out at an Inuit site on the Burnside River south of the Kent Peninsula, Bryan Gordon of the Museum of Civilization ( Nadlok and the Origin of the Copper Inuit - Climate, Dating and Seasonality ) provides data that suggest the Passage may have become difficult if not impractical by 1450 A.D:

Nadlok’s carbon-dated floors and levels show a 1450-1750 A.D. occupation in the Little Ice Age, a time of deteriorating climate when ocean temperature fell 1-3 deg. C and the Arctic summer front retreated 4-5 deg. of latitude. Sea ice stayed all year in sheltered Bathurst Inlet and east Coronation Gulf, inevitably disrupting sea-mammals and their hunters, but with little effect on caribou.

Nevertheless, it likely follows that prior to this time - the “ Viking Age “ between 800 and 1100 CE especially - that a warmer climate prevailed along at least the eastern approaches to the Northwest Passage if not its entirety. Indeed, as Charles W. Moore notes ( Did 14th Century Scandinavian Explorers Visit Midwestern North America? ):

For the first century or so of their Greenland colonization, the Vikings and their descendants enjoyed a reasonably prosperous and pleasant life there. Greenland’s climate c. 1000 A.D. was in an extraordinarily warm phase, and the name Eric chose for his new land may not have been quite the real-estate promoter’s con-job as has been assumed. Even 350 years later, after a general global cooling had altered Greenland’s climate for the worse, Ivar Bardson wrote that “ On the mountains and lower down grow the best of fruits, as big as apples and good to eat. There also grows the best wheat that exists.” Life in Greenland was hardly the rough outpost existence we might expect....

However by 1200, climatic change allowed the arctic ice pack to creep farther southward, making navigation in Greenland waters increasingly hazardous — even in summer. Ships came now only sporadically, and some years none called at all. In 1261, the Greenlanders felt obliged to accept union with Norway and subjection to the Norwegian crown, in return for which two ships would be sent per year. This effectively shut the Hansa markets off from Greenland trade, and sometimes even the promised Norwegian vessels didn’t make it through the ice. The colonies’ decline accelerated.

To what degree the warmer climate of the Medieval Warm Period may have simplified westward progress through the Northwest Passage during the earlier phases of Greenland’s Viking history remains unknown, but the fact that it was warmer may shed further light on some of the northernmost Viking excursions along the western coastline of Greenland itself. As it so happens, archaeological research in the area around Coberg and Skraeling Islands on the Canadian side of Baffin Bay indicates a possible Viking presence just off the south-east coast of Ellesmere Island. In other words, at a point where the Vikings would be well positioned to make a run into the Northwest Passage and also augment their food supplies before doing so.


85 posted on 05/29/2007 9:16:11 AM PDT by RobFromGa (This tagline intentionally left blank.)
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To: All

“Climate change” is codespeak for carbon tax.


86 posted on 05/29/2007 9:18:34 AM PDT by DPMD (dpmd)
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To: oyez
and still more....
87 posted on 05/29/2007 10:09:37 AM PDT by Optimist (I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Everything changes Nancy. Absolutely. . .E V E R Y T H I N G!

. . .save what it means to be an ignorant human being.

88 posted on 05/29/2007 12:41:45 PM PDT by cricket (If you want to lose a mile; give a Lib an inch. . .)
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To: RobFromGa

That is the worst picture of Pelosi out there. Maybe the job is getting to her! I hope so!


89 posted on 05/29/2007 1:42:30 PM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: Optimist
Algore and all have a living plan for you. And you get a choice.
This: Or this:
90 posted on 05/29/2007 1:47:35 PM PDT by oyez
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To: Anti-Bubba182

Pelosi just needs a tuneup, a new paint job and a soul transplant, and she’ll be good as new.


91 posted on 05/29/2007 1:53:15 PM PDT by RobFromGa (This tagline intentionally left blank.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
President Bush Clinton rejected that accord, saying it would harm the U.S. economy and unfair excludes developing countries like China and India from its obligations.

How soon they forget.

92 posted on 05/29/2007 1:54:13 PM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: Logan1492
The people in tropical countries will get screwed, however, because over there, more hot climate will mean more droughts and parched crops. However, we should not care about this. We don't live in a tropical climate. Those countries should deal with their problems on their own.

You mean like how the people who live in the tropics were always quick to help us out when we got whomped with a blizzard?

93 posted on 05/29/2007 1:56:47 PM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: RobFromGa

She really looks tired and haggard in that photo. Botox can do only so much.


94 posted on 05/29/2007 2:06:05 PM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: woofie

If liberals really don't want to read about the Global Cooling hysteria of decades ago, they should at least read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" or rent the freakin "Chicken Little" DVD from Blockbuster.

95 posted on 05/29/2007 2:58:36 PM PDT by Eric Blair 2084 (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shouldn't be a federal agency...it should be a convenience store.)
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To: stefan10
it would be a good idea to do some research but if you believe the settlers call this region greenland because of the mild climate and the green landscapes you are completely wrong.

It doesn't take much research to find websites that cover the history of Greenland. One site is the American Heritage dictionary:

"WORD HISTORY How did a glacier-covered island get the name Greenland? In Norse legends written in the 12th century and later, it is told that Eric the Red explored the southeast and southwest coasts of Greenland in A.D. 983-986 and gave the country its name because people would be more likely to go there if it had an attractive name. Greenland was warmer in the tenth century than it is now. There were many islands teeming with birds off its western coast; the sea was excellent for fishing; and the coast of Greenland itself had many fjords where anchorage was good. At the head of the fjords there were enormous meadows full of grass, willows, junipers, birch, and wild berries. Thus Greenland actually deserved its name. Another attraction of Greenland was that Iceland and northwestern Europe, including England, had a grievous year of famine in 976, and people were hungry for food as well as land.

Another site covers the fact that Greenland settlements of Europeans were abandonded about 1400, during the Little Ice Age. It is still colder in Greenland now than when Eric the Red was there. From the Smithsonian Institute,

http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/voyage/subset/greenland/environment.html

"Studies of environmental conditions, climate, and their interactions have produced important new information relevant to Norse extinction in Greenland. Most revealing is the detailed evidence of climatic changes that occurred in the northwestern Atlantic beginning in the early 1300s. Changes in atmospheric temperature are recorded in such diverse materials as glacier ice derived from snow falling on the Greenland Ice Cap, fossil vegetation and pollen deposited annually in lake sediments, chemical signatures in isotopic composition of sea sediments, animal and human bones, and even the species of insect pests that accompanied Vikings and their animals as they settled new lands. These indicators clearly suggest that the climate was cooling in the 14th century, and that the Greenlandic environment had been depleted of its "natural capital"--its previously untapped grasslands and animal resources-over 500 years of farming practices in this delicate arctic climate."

Pelosi must have learned that Greenland is colder now than when it was named. Why would she suppress that small fact? If she went to Mars, she would find the polar (dry ice) caps there to be shrinking. Are America's capitalists and SUV's causing problems there, too?

"Global warming" is a study in political opinion manipulation, not science.

96 posted on 05/29/2007 2:58:41 PM PDT by Cracker Jack (Government must expand to meet the needs of a growing government </s>)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

pelosi can’t even bake a cake never mind knowing anything about climate change.


97 posted on 05/30/2007 4:52:43 AM PDT by G-Man 1
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To: WOSG
I don´t want to get into a religion type of discussion because that is the way global warming is discussed here. To find examples of people or even scientist that do not believe that global warming (or beter the vast majority of the sharp increase) is man made is like the guys that often post here but the last winter was so cold in the region where i live.

The point is: within the scientific community is no real discussion about that topic anymore whether the global warming is man made or not. To deny this is just ignoring facts. perhaps these guys are all idiots i do not know but at least they know more about that than i do.

Now we have a political debate and both sites should be more rational here because it is a serious issue.

98 posted on 05/30/2007 10:17:12 AM PDT by stefan10
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To: stefan10

” The point is: within the scientific community is no real discussion about that topic anymore whether the global warming is man made or not. “

No. The REAL point is that your point is a strawman, used by the climate alarmists to misstate the REAL disagreement. They want to boil it down to a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question, when it is not. While you are right that most scientists, even ‘global warming deniers’, acknowledge some man-made impact on the climate, that is not what’s at issue.

The real question is the *magnitude* and *impact* of man-made inputs into the climate system.
The *magnitude* - meaning, how much will CO2 rise, how much CO2 will be aborbed by biological sinks such as oceans and biomass, and how much will temperature react to that - could be anywhere from ‘miniscule’ to ‘massive’ depending on the science, models, etc. To pretend that science is certain on this is to fundamentally mis-state how science works. It’s *never* certain and we will *always* learn more and tweak our understanding.

All scientists will acknowledge that in our past, *natural* climate change took the earth’s temperature to means that were 5C or more below current levels (ice ages) and at other times was several degrees C above current levels.
Curiously, in those cases, CO2 levels trailed the temperature levels. All scientists will acknowledge the obvious - that the suns fluctuations create climate changes (11 year sun spot cycle etc, Mauder minimum, etc). They will also acknowledge that water vapor is the main greenhouse gas and it is completely natural.

The *impact* of increased CO2 could be benign to something pretty bad. Benign is possible in that warming actually helps in many ways - less cold deaths, longer growing seasons and high CO2 means higher crops yields and more drought resistance.

As for sea levels, IPCC says 25-40 inches in the worst case scenario, but at current rates it would be 12 inches in the next century. Al Gore otoh is preaching the fire-and-brimstone that greenland will melt and sea levels will rise 20 feet.

So you see, the question is not “yes/no” but “how much” and “is it bad or just okay”.

I was checking one of the sites and recent papers, which was noting that the models underlying IPCC’s view of 2-4C warming from doubling of CO2 overstates the warming in the previous century.
The models have *all* the warming due to CO2, but ignored are natural variation impacts. They can only get that by assuming powerful positive feedback, which with respect to clouds is not well-studied nor understood. Hence the models are assumptions without clear backing.

“To deny this is just ignoring facts. perhaps these guys are all idiots i do not know but at least they know more about that than i do.”

I can assure you, I am just a PhD in a topic other than climate science. I know less than the climate scientists. But I’ve read parts of IPCC reports, and waded through some climate science papers. Based on Gore’s statements, I can be pretty certain I am more knowledgeable than Gore is on the topic.

What is frightening is how off-base he is *compared with even the science underlying the IPCC position*, and yet he is lauded as a savior. He is exaggerating.

http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2007/04/globaloney-fears-shouldnt-dictate.html

John Kerry said: “And yet we have allowed worlderwide temperatures to heat up an average of 1.4 degrees in the last six years alone.” Wrong, Senator. The average rise in temperatures has been 0.6 degrees Centigrade over the last century, and there has been no rise in many critical measurements (such as satellite temperature measurements) in the past six years. Some scientists contend that much of the temperature variation in recent decades is at leastly partyl due to natural causes, and certainly the history of the earth shows that natural climate change has happened all the time.

The politicians and some climate scientists have been playing the game of hyping fear for some time, and many have admitted as much:
“To do that we need to get some broadbased support, to capture the public’s imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have.”
—Steven Schneider, Quoted in Discover, pp. 45-48, Oct. 1989; and American Physical Society, APS News August/September 1996.


99 posted on 05/30/2007 11:43:04 AM PDT by WOSG (Stop Illegal Immigration. Call your Senator today. Senate Switchboard at 202-224-3121.))
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