FL lawyer says Giuliani, Romney, McCain wrong on Schiavo case

OneNewsNow ^ | 5/28/07 | Jim Brown

[wagglebee]

The Christian attorney who fought to keep Terry Schiavo alive says the three leading GOP presidential candidates don't understand the important disability issues involved in the widely publicized 2005 case.

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During a recent Republican presidential debate in California, the candidates were asked whether Congress was right to intervene in the Terry Schiavo case by attempting to prevent the state of Florida from removing the disabled woman's feeding tube. The answers varied.

Mitt Romney, former governor of Massachusetts, said he thought it "was a mistake" for Congress to get involved and the matter should have been left at the state level. Senator John McCain said Congress "probably acted too hastily." And former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani called the case a "family dispute."

David Gibbs III of the Christian Law Association says the United States gives greater due process to convicted murderers than to innocent disabled people. The former attorney for Schiavo's parents argues that Congress did the right thing when it intervened to provide her those rights.

"Many of the candidates are following the political wind, if you will, instead of showing leadership and saying, 'You know what? That was good public policy back then. We need to stand up for the disabled. We need to stand up for the senior citizens,'" Gibbs says. "We need to have that compassion for vulnerable people as opposed to taking the mindset that those people that just don't matter," he notes.

It is disingenuous, the Christian attorney contends, for candidates to claim they are pro-life but not be willing to grant due process rights to the disabled. "If you're pro-life, you have to be pro-life at every step," he says.

"Please understand: our founding fathers understood that you don't have any liberty, our Constitution doesn't matter, if you don't protect the innocent life of the citizens," Gibbs explains. "That's why they talked about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- your free speech, your freedom of religion, your right to own a gun or [receive] due process of law," he says. "If the government can kill you, you have no true liberty."

When Rudy Giuliani visited Florida he initially said he was in favor of assisting Terry Schiavo but later backpedaled from those comments, Gibbs points out. And in the recent GOP presidential debate, he says, only Kansas Senator Sam Brownback and Congressman Duncan Hunter of California got the issue right when they were asked about the Schiavo case.

[T'wit]

>> Really...I can't in good conscience say "I know" he is responsible for the condition she suffered.

Who can? Only two people knew for certain. One of them had the other put to death. He may have thought that dead wives tell no tales, but time and medical science will show that he was wrong about that.

We look at it first from the other side. We ask for an INNOCENT explanation of Terri's injuries. The only one that Michael's supporters can offer is, "It's just one of those things that medical science cannot explain." There actually are a few cases of young women dying of cardiac arrest for no known reason, but the odds are astronomical against it. And that's without even considering the context: Michael and Terri were having a big fight.

Michael's only alibi, and it was absurd all along, was shot down in the autopsy report. So this is a false direction. There simply is no basis for supposing that Terri's injuries were innocent or from some natural cause.

That leaves domestic violence as the only answer. And sad to say, there is nothing rare or unusual about domestic violence. It is the #1 cause of death and injury to young women -- more even than automobile wrecks.

Logically, then, the question isn't whether Michael hurt Terri, but how. The problem at hand is finding a means of injuring her that is consistent with Terri's medical history.

[retMD]

Dr. Thogmartin refused to allow observers chosen by either the Schindlers or Michael Schiavo.

--By "observers", you refer to other forensic pathologists, of course.

Yes. However, as I've pointed out earlier, Dr. Thogmartin and Dr. Nelson were both in the lab working on the autopsy.

Considering the highly publized and controversial nature of this case, the wiser decision would have been to welcome a colleague with expertise in the field, IMO.

I can see arguments either way. There were two pathologists involved, after all, so there was such a colleague. On the other hand, someone independent might have prevented all the claims of "flaws" in the autopsy. However, depending on the people picked, it might only have reinforced the controversy, with each of the groups (Florida-appointed, those chosen by the Schindlers, and those chosen by Michael Schiavo) all claiming bias and inaccuracy on the part of the others. Dr. Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist who used to be New York City's chief medical examiner, said:

the autopsy was more thorough than most and should lay to rest all rumors of foul play.

As to the accuracy of her diagnosis, I found the following article to be interesting.

Thanks, I've read it, and it is interesting.

[retMD]

There simply is no basis for supposing that Terri's injuries were innocent or from some natural cause.

You did praise Dr. Baden early on.

Dr. Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist who used to be New York City's chief medical examiner, said the autopsy was more thorough than most and should lay to rest all rumors of foul play.

and

This doesn't close the book on the cause of this in the first place. But we know it wasn't trauma or spousal abuse. Whatever the cause, it was a natural one rather than a suspicious one."

So the well-known and extremely experienced pathologist that you intially praised disagrees with you.

Michael's only alibi, and it was absurd all along, was shot down in the autopsy report.

I was under the impression that bulimia was the basis for a malpractice suit against Terri Schiavo's doctors, not that it was an alibi offered to the police as you are implying?

The problem at hand is finding a means of injuring her that is consistent with Terri's medical history.

And you claimed I was partisan and you were only searching for the truth!

[retMD]

So have you found a Freeper doc so you can verify the medical meaning of “alert and oriented”? I know of a few, armydoc, timydnuc, hocndoc, polybius. I’m expect there are more that I don’t know of.

This is standard medical terminology, and I’m sure one of them can quickly clarify for you exactly what it means when a nurse or doctor says, “the patient is alert and oriented.”

[pickyourpoison]

Some of these posters might want to google Marjorie Nighbert or Hugh Finn and read their stories. These are two other cases where the patients were denied food and water by the courts.

Hugh Finn’s daughter was very young when he died. She is an adult now and came here to FR looking for info on his death and was shown the court records about it.

Marjorie Nighbert was able to talk and begged for food.

Lots of Teri’s, Hugh’s and Marjories out there but don’t starve your dog or you’ll go to jail.

[kozokey]

Try “orientation”.

[kozokey]

T'wit, of course they are not word-for-word the same, but every entry for "oriented" or "orientation" describes the patient's ability to identify herself with respect to person, place, and time. You are being disingenuous, and that is beneath you.

From Stedman's:

orientation (r--en-tshn) 1. The recognition of one's temporal, spatial, and personal relationships and environment.

The other links I gave you all had similar definitions for "oriented" or "orientation". Shall I copy them all to this thread, or can you just admit the obvious? There's no need to get your ego bruised over this. Everybody makes a mistake sometime.

[kozokey]

I see retMD already posted the definitions. Forgive my redundancy!

[bjs1779]

orientation (r--en-tshn) 1. The recognition of one's temporal, spatial, and personal relationships and environment.

Carla Iyer was right of course. Terri at times could be alert and orientated. This video shows she watches the lights. Then follows her father when he puts them down.

Then her father reminds her of an event from the past and she goes "huh"? Her father responds and she laughs. Not bad for a person that had no therapy for 10 years or so and was in a cage for a couple of years (hospice) at the time of this video. Shame on you people.

http://hometown.aol.com/GordonWWatts/myhomepage/ConversationWithTerri

[retMD]

Carla Iyer was right of course. Terri at times could be alert and orientated.

Terri Schiavo could give her name, name the place that she was, and give the date? I've seen that claim nowhere else, and I know of no neurologist who examined her that said that. Can you link to an examining neurologist to back that up?

[bjs1779]

Terri Schiavo could give her name, name the place that she was, and give the date?

Date, rank, and serial number too. I think you should retreat before it catches on that you are sick.

[erton1]

The term “alert and orientated” is standard medical terminology used throughout the country. The definitions provided by retMD and kozokey are entirely correct and accepted by all in the medical profession. Because of it’s commonly understood definition, it is also used in legal cases to describe a person’s condition when that is an issue in the case, such as Schiavo.

No one with a medical background, such as Iyer, would use this terminology to describe Terri. She was either lying or grossly mistaken in her assessment of Terri’s condition. We will never know, because Iyer was never cross examined about this or other portions of her affidavit. Can you now understand why courts give little to no credibility to affidavits when the affiant does not testify in open court and is subject cross exam. All these affidavits the Schindlers used at the end are basically legally worthless. I ask again, Why were the Schindlers so afraid of having their witnesses subject to cross examination. These affidavits relate to facts alleged to have occurred prior to the trials. Are you or any of your cohorts ever going to answer this threshold question?

BTW, if Iyer had testified at trial with the same argument you and twit have employed on this thread, her entire testimony would have been entirely discredited.

[erton1]

retMD, This poster is back in fantasy land.

[retMD]

Date, rank, and serial number too.

Please post link to back up this claim - especially the serial number! :)

[bjs1779]

BTW, if Iyer had testified at trial with the same argument you and twit have employed on this thread, her entire testimony would have been entirely discredited.

Question is, why did you want Terri dead? There is no other way to interrupt that from your remarks. That is the question that everyone wants answered. Think you can do that?

[bjs1779]

Please post link to back up this claim - especially the serial number! :)

I warned you. Now everyone can see how sick you are.

[retMD]

I’m sick for asking you to back up your claims? I thought that was standard here at Free Republic - we back up what we say, not just make wild claims.

[retMD]

And I assumed “serial number” was a joke. If not, than perhaps you know something I don’t about Terri Schiavo’s military service?

[retMD]

Back to ad hominem attacks again. When the facts can’t be rebutted, call people a nazi, dishonest, or claim they “wanted Terri dead.” This is about the 10th go-round for that one.

[bjs1779]

I’m sick for asking you to back up your claims? I thought that was standard here at Free Republic - we back up what we say, not just make wild claims.

No doubt about it, I think you are eligible for a few days without water. Then you will know what sick is, my kind hearted friend.