Posted on 05/28/2007 9:33:12 AM PDT by wagglebee
The Christian attorney who fought to keep Terry Schiavo alive says the three leading GOP presidential candidates don't understand the important disability issues involved in the widely publicized 2005 case.
During a recent Republican presidential debate in California, the candidates were asked whether Congress was right to intervene in the Terry Schiavo case by attempting to prevent the state of Florida from removing the disabled woman's feeding tube. The answers varied.
Mitt Romney, former governor of Massachusetts, said he thought it "was a mistake" for Congress to get involved and the matter should have been left at the state level. Senator John McCain said Congress "probably acted too hastily." And former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani called the case a "family dispute."
David Gibbs III of the Christian Law Association says the United States gives greater due process to convicted murderers than to innocent disabled people. The former attorney for Schiavo's parents argues that Congress did the right thing when it intervened to provide her those rights.
"Many of the candidates are following the political wind, if you will, instead of showing leadership and saying, 'You know what? That was good public policy back then. We need to stand up for the disabled. We need to stand up for the senior citizens,'" Gibbs says. "We need to have that compassion for vulnerable people as opposed to taking the mindset that those people that just don't matter," he notes.
It is disingenuous, the Christian attorney contends, for candidates to claim they are pro-life but not be willing to grant due process rights to the disabled. "If you're pro-life, you have to be pro-life at every step," he says.
"Please understand: our founding fathers understood that you don't have any liberty, our Constitution doesn't matter, if you don't protect the innocent life of the citizens," Gibbs explains. "That's why they talked about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- your free speech, your freedom of religion, your right to own a gun or [receive] due process of law," he says. "If the government can kill you, you have no true liberty."
When Rudy Giuliani visited Florida he initially said he was in favor of assisting Terry Schiavo but later backpedaled from those comments, Gibbs points out. And in the recent GOP presidential debate, he says, only Kansas Senator Sam Brownback and Congressman Duncan Hunter of California got the issue right when they were asked about the Schiavo case.
I have no idea what her training has been, nor did I claim that I did. But if she had any training at all, her lack of knowledge as to what "oriented" means in a medical setting is hard to believe. You have the choice between believing her ignorant of basic medical information, or that she was lying.
Reread my earlier post - I never said she didn't have such training. I said her ignorance was hard to believe if she had even basic training. Since those here speak of her as a nurse, I would assume she's had far more than basic training. Which makes ignorance of basic medical terms hard to believe. All that's left is that she is lying.
“Yes. Her use of the word “stop!” shows up on her med charts and she could say a few other words. The nurses reported on that. But in Michael’s long regime of denying her therapy or even stimulation, Terri stopped verbalizing. I gather that she did make expressive sounds, but no longer tried words. Pat Anderson (the attorney) speaks movingly of her husband’s effort, years later, to correct that and get Terri verbalizing again. He taught her to the equivalent of “yes” and “no,” at least with some success. He took it especially hard when Terri was put to death not long afterward. They both did. I, for one, wish Pat Anderson were still speaking about the case. She is an encyclopedia about Terri’s story and the law.”
I wish talk shows would have Pat Anderson on their show as a guest. It’s too late for Terri, but not for other disabled folks who cannot speak for themselves.
No that won't do, retmd. Everyone knows she was a nurse. That means she had a medical setting. It is you that is ignorant. Correct?
You appear to be confused about what I am saying. I am not denying she was a nurse - I don't know her level of training, but I will accept that she is a nurse. I am saying that she could not possibly have escaped being taught the medical meaning of "oriented," as T'wit suggested. If it isn't ignorance, then Carla Iyer was lying about Terri Schiavo being oriented.
Quite a leap there. Doesn't it bother you that you are just a Michael Schiavo Troll? This is getting sad for you people. See you tomorrow if need be.
I read her testimony in the 2000 trial. There was no mention of physical abuse. there was mention of an argument over money. Are you aware how common it is for couples to argue over money?
If Jackie Rhoades testified that there was physical abuse, and the medical details stood up under cross examination, I would call that evidence of abuse. However, you have not shown me that. What you are trying to sell is a third hand report of testimony, with no link to the actual testimony, and some doubt as to whether there was even such a hearing the year you claim the testimony occurred.
I will be glad to read the testimony you mention, when you link to it.
How is it a leap? Carla Iyer said in an affidavit that Terri Schiavo was "alert and oriented." If she is a nurse, she knows what that means in a medical setting. So she is claiming that Terri Schiavo told her name, place, and date.
It's odd that you continue to accuse anyone who points out misinformation (in this case, a fabrication by Carla Iyer) of being a nazi, a troll, or "wanting Terri dead." Will you condemn lies about the medical facts that say things you want to believe? Or are lies good when they say what you want to believe?
“Please read what I’ve actually said, not what you think or want to believe I’ve said.”
Perhaps you need to make yourself more clear and spell out what you say.
“She failed three swallowing tests, in 1991, 1992 and 1993.”
What does that tell you about those tests, when Terri’s nurses tell us they saw her swallow?
This is from CNSNews.com:
Former caregivers file affidavits supporting allegations
Three medical professionals who had cared for Terri in the past filed affidavits accompanying the lawsuit, disputing Michael Schiavo’s claims that his wife was in a “Persistent Vegetative State,” which is the requirement under Florida law for a feeding tube to be removed. The medical experts also chronicled a long history of alleged denial of care and therapy by Schiavo.
Carolyn Johnson, a Certified Nursing Assistant (CNA), cared for Terri in a nursing home in the early 1990s. She described her shock at being ordered not to provide the same care for Terri as a patient in the same room with a similar brain injury was receiving.
“I learned, as part of my training, that there was a family dispute and that the husband, as guardian, wanted no rehabilitation for Terri,” Johnson explained. “Once, I wanted to put a cloth in Terri’s hand to keep her hand from closing in on itself, but I was not permitted to do this, as Michael Schiavo considered that to be a form of rehabilitation.”
Another CNA, Heidi Law, cared for Terri at a convalescent center in the mid and late 1990s. Law described similar orders she received not to encourage Mrs. Schiavo’s recovery.
“I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out,” Law alleged in her affidavit. “Even though they were ordered, Michael [Schiavo] would stop them. Michael [Schiavo] ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy.”
Law also alleged that her attempts to document Terri’s potential for improvement were thwarted.
“I made extensive notes and listed all of Terri’s behaviors, but there was never any apparent follow-up consistent with her responsiveness,” Law said. “There were trash cans at the nurses stations that we were supposed to empty each shift, and I often saw the notes in them.”
Law directly disputes Michael Schiavo’s claim that Terri is in a Persistent Vegetative State, as well. In her affidavit, she detailed how she routinely provided Terri with a wet washcloth filled with ice chips to keep her mouth moistened and, on at least three occasions, fed Terri flavored gelatin.
“I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag. [Another CAN] and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy,” Law recalled. “On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jell-O, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely.”
But I have, on the issue you mention. If you can find where I said the autopsy proves Terri Schiavo had PVS, please quote it. You won't be able to, because I've never said that. The autopsy can only be consistent with, or not consistent with PVS. As many pathologists have said, the autopsy result was consistent with PVS.
“My understanding is that swallowing therapy techniques have improved a lot since 1990. A number of doctors and therapists came forward to say that she should have been given this improved therapy. But Judge Greer wouldn’t allow her any testing or therapy.”
When they attempted to starve Terri to death another time, and Terri’s sibblings tried to have her fed orally, Florida’s Judge Greer said:
“I don’t want anyone trying to feed that girl.
The law of the case is that she is going to die.”
So, you see the feeding tube was just an excuse to MURDER Terri. She could swallow soft foods and liquids, and would have been able to swallow even better with THERAPY (Michael wouldn’t allow THERAPY).
I have to question these reports, as I questioned Carla Iyer because of the inconsistencies. Throwing away medical records is an extremely serious charge - all any of these nurses would have had to do was report it to trigger a big time investigation. Yet strangely, they never said a word at the time. Any nurse I know would have hit the ceiling if they saw that. So it does appear to be an excuse for why they didn’t chart Terri Schiavo eating at the time. Because it surely never showed up in their charts. Why didn’t these nurses testify at any of the trials? Erton1 has pointed out that an affidavit is not the same as testimony.
“As many pathologists have said, the autopsy result was consistent with PVS.”
I don’t think these pathologists have much in the way of common sense, because PVS is misdiagnosed around half the time with the LIVING.
I think these pathologists had an agenda.
"The neuropathologic findings, oropharyngeal anatomic findings, and medical records clearly indicate that Mrs. Schiavo would not have been able to consume sustenance safely and/or in sufficient quantity by mouth."
I heard a different nurse on Sean Hannity’s show say she was fired from the hospice for speaking up.
So what if an affidavit is not the same as a testimony? What would the nurses have to gain from submitting the affidavits? Ever think of that?
Open your eyes.
Don’t you think it’s fishy that a man sues for malpractice, and gets the malpractice $$, because he says he will take care of his wife for the rest of her life, and SOON after getting the malpractice $$ “remembers” that she wanted to die?
Goes to show you tests are wrong, because HER NURSES FED HER soft foods.
I had an erroneous test myself, and two doctors told me I needed major surgery, but I got a third opinion and escaped the major surgery.
P.S.
About the autopsy, Terri’s family wanted some of their own people to observe, but their request was denied.
We've been through that earlier on this thread. Dr. Thogmartin refused to allow observers chosen by either the Schindlers or Michael Schiavo.
So the nurses, some of whom I believe were medical assistants at the time, disregarded the orders on the chart which said "nothing by mouth"? Not a good recommendation for their medical credentials or ethics.
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