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To: fortheDeclaration
"God was not created, He existed before time and created it."

And your evidence of this is?

If everything needs to have a creator, whether intelligent or not, then God also needs a creator. If God is outside time and outside the current requirement for a cause then what general laws above and beyond those of the universe limits the existence of an uncaused cause to just one being or thing?

You are simply making the conjecture that since everything in the universe must have a creator, and in fact that single thought gives you comfort in proving to yourself that a God exists, then the origin of the universe must have an uncreated creator, otherwise known as the one and only 'Uncaused Cause'.

However, for some reason, you ignore the physics which lead scientists to believe that the universe may not have needed a cause itself, because the current laws of cause and effect, as well as time, were not in effect until after that origin. The start of the universe is outside of time and space and does not need to be caused any more than, as you conjecture, your God does. The need for cause and effect is a result of the universe, not the other way around. The universe can be said to be our uncaused cause.

What criteria should we be using to decide between two (or more) potential uncaused causes? Is there some reason we should believe that God is the uncaused cause over any other?

200 posted on 05/30/2007 10:07:56 AM PDT by b_sharp (The last door on your right. Jiggle the handle.)
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To: b_sharp
"God was not created, He existed before time and created it."

And your evidence of this is If everything needs to have a creator, whether intelligent or not, then God also needs a creator. If God is outside time and outside the current requirement for a cause then what general laws above and beyond those of the universe limits the existence of an uncaused cause to just one being or thing? You are simply making the conjecture that since everything in the universe must have a creator, and in fact that single thought gives you comfort in proving to yourself that a God exists, then the origin of the universe must have an uncreated creator, otherwise known as the one and only 'Uncaused Cause'. However, for some reason, you ignore the physics which lead scientists to believe that the universe may not have needed a cause itself, because the current laws of cause and effect, as well as time, were not in effect until after that origin. The start of the universe is outside of time and space and does not need to be caused any more than, as you conjecture, your God does. The need for cause and effect is a result of the universe, not the other way around. The universe can be said to be our uncaused cause. What criteria should we be using to decide between two (or more) potential uncaused causes? Is there some reason we should believe that God is the uncaused cause over any other?

No reason at all.

But you have to have faith as the root for your system, not observation and experimentation (science).

You make the Universe your god and it doesn't explain how order exists in the Universe, nor where man came from.

I believe in a living God that created order and man in His image and likeness.

Both of us have to start with a given, something is the cause and believe that it exists and that resulted in what we have around us today.

The only question is which view is more reasonable and rational, not which one is more 'scientific'

218 posted on 05/31/2007 5:29:11 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! -Abe Lincoln)
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