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To: antiRepublicrat
There is no choice involved at all on the part of the bartender. The law is he must reject a forged document.

He has a choice whether to believe the document is forged or not.

He instead observes that it is missing, compares it to the fact that the hologram should be there, and rejects the license based on the evidence. See? No choice, no belief, no faith.

He still has to have faith that no one has figured out how to forge the ID and that his assessment that the person pictured on the ID is the person standing before him. Governments change the format of IDs (and money) all the time because someone HAS figured out how to replicate the old format. People change their appearance all the time (hair, glasses, beard/no beard, plastic surgery, etc), and bars are not exactly lighted brightly.

It's especially clear when bad things happen to good people through no fault of their own or of other people.

Again, this shows that logic is in the eye of the beholder. It seems illogical to me to assume God is not all good because bad things happen. To you, it appears to be a logical conclusion.

There is logic, and then there is logic twisted by an agenda.

And naturally, the people on each side of an issue think those on the opposing side are the ones twisting logic.

A person of faith must subordinate logic to his faith.

Perhaps, but that would include those who have faith in their position that God does not exist. ;)

If you have faith, everything looks like faith.

So you can prove your position as regards the existence of God without a doubt to anyone? No, of course you can't. Therefore, you have faith, just like everyone else.

I accept Evolution based on the evidence.

You have faith that the interpretations of the evidence given by scientists are correct.

I don't believe in it. I don't have faith in it.

Perhaps your faith is in the scientists, and the belief in evolution is the byproduct of that. But you believe it based on faith.

There is no concept of rationally looking at evidence, basing opinions on past experience and knowledge, accepting or rejecting things based on credible evidence or lack thereof, without any faith involved.

People may use those things you've listed as they are deciding what they will believe. But ultimately, they choose to have faith in something or someone for whatever reasons they choose.

I think you are covering several different words and concepts with the word "faith."

Perhaps that is what you have chosen to believe. ;)

78 posted on 05/22/2007 10:40:04 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody
He has a choice whether to believe the document is forged or not.

He cannot be honest, do his job and still make a choice. Either the ID meets the requirements according to his knowledge, or it does not. The determination of validity flows from the facts and his knowledge, not a choice on his part. In this sense, he is operating as a machine, accepting input, matching it to criteria, and giving the resultant output. You would have to say the machine has faith and "believes" the ID is real. That either can be fooled is irrelevant.

He still has to have faith that no one has figured out how to forge the ID

For the rest of this, you are still using the word "faith" to cover many other terms. You would say I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. You probably personally do, as to you everything is faith. Back in reality it is a reasonable expectation based on experience and knowledge.

79 posted on 05/22/2007 10:59:27 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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