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To: P-Marlowe
Are you going to tell me with a straight face that the Judicial Branch is not granted power by the Constitution to determine what laws are Constitutional and what laws are not Constitutional.

Yes. It was a power that was usurped by the Supreme Court in Marbury v. Madison. It was a power that was later allowed to be used by lower courts. It is not explicit in the Constitution. IMO both Congress and the President have equal authority to judge the constutionality of any law. Indeed, it is their solemn duty. The Consitution does not make the Supreme Court the final arbiter of what is or is not consitutional. Ultimately it is left to the people.

U.S. Constitution;

The Judicial Branch is granted power by the Constitution to determine what laws are Constitutional and what laws are not Constitutional. The only recourse for their mistakes is that judges may be impeached for bad behavior.

536 posted on 05/20/2007 6:22:10 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign
James Madison respectfully rises from his grave to stand to object with that reading of who determines what is or is not Constitutional:
In this article, I address the most common (and most influential) justification for originalism: popular sovereignty and the judicially enforced will of the people. Popular sovereignty both reflects and builds upon the normative theory of democratic rule - government by the majoritarian consent of the governed. The costs of judicial error under this approach waxes and wanes depending on the degree of departure from the people's will and the constraints placed on the ability of political majorities to respond to the court's error. The greater the intrusion into the democratic process, the greater the costs of judicial error and, accordingly, the greater the need for “weightier” pragmatic arguments if precedent is to control. Judicial errors that leave an issue under the control of political majorities generally impose such low costs in terms of constitutional legitimacy that the pragmatic considerations of stare decisis may come to the fore. On the other hand, judicial errors that completely remove a matter from majoritarian politics impose such high costs in terms of constitutional legitimacy that they ought to be treated as presumptively in need of overturning - a presumption I refer to as reverse stare decisis.

Allowing majoritarian politics to play a role in determining the strength of prior precedent is not a new idea: it was first suggested by James Madison, one of the authors of the Constitution and a committed popular sovereigntist.

Originalism, Popular Sovereignty and Reverse State Decisis
KURT T. LASH, Loyola Law School Los Angeles, Loyola-LA Legal Studies Paper No. 2007-16, Virginia Law Review, 2007

Popular Sovereignty. That's one alternative -- there are, in American Legal history, others. President Andrew Jackson had a veiw that made the Executive at least co-equal with the Supreme Court:
Between 1790 and 1871, the U.S. Senate ratified 380 treaties with Indian nations. Congress entered into treaties with the [nations] to acquire land which it would sell to pay off its huge debts. Start-up costs for a nation, even back then were staggering and the U.S. was too weak to take the land by force. What it had to offer the [Indian nations], in return, were sovereignty and peace.

When the legal concept of sovereignty was first challenged in the Supreme Court by the state of Georgia in the 1820s, Chief Justice John Marshall took pains to examine this legal apparatus and to explain how it functions. He knew battles with the [Indian nations] would only escalate over time.

This brace of cases, known as the Marshall Trilogy, held that every treaty ratified by the U.S. Senate under Article VI, Clause 2 of the Constitution, was now the "supreme law of the land." Sovereignty, explained Marshall, exists as a pre-condition among self-governing entities and acts as a legal shield protecting all rights and privileges reserved and implied by nationhood. In fact, treaties were the granting of rights from the [Indian nations] to the federal government.

President Andrew Jackson was so infuriated by Marshall's opinion that he declared: "Let him enforce it!" then sent thousands of Cherokee ... [westward. bvw: cutting out the most egregious PC tripe]

(btw -- I'd have more to say in re Jackson and the Cherokees, the war on terror, and on title, if anyone wants to hear, but it's not relevant to the question of who decides what is Constitutional.)
541 posted on 05/20/2007 6:45:09 PM PDT by bvw
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To: FreeReign
The Judicial Branch is granted power by the Constitution to determine what laws are Constitutional and what laws are not Constitutional.

That is a judicial fiction. There is no such consitutiunal power granted to the judiciary. It was a power that was usurped by the Suprme Court in Marbury v. Madison.

The only recourse for their mistakes is that judges may be impeached for bad behavior.

Wrong. The recourse is for Congress to simply pass a law and the president to sign it reinstating the law and declaring it to be constitutional.

Nobody has ever tried that. But it clearly is within the legislative and executive powers granted to Congress and the President.

Are you a lawyer?

566 posted on 05/20/2007 9:24:57 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: FreeReign
You left out this part:

...In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make. (bold mine)

I find that much overlooked clause particularly relevant to the discussion.

607 posted on 05/27/2007 6:55:01 AM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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