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Purdue Process Generates Hydrogen from Aluminum Alloy On demand Hydrogen for cars)
PESN ^ | 15 May 07 | staff

Posted on 05/17/2007 4:09:52 AM PDT by saganite

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To: saganite

You can pull off a very similar process by simply dissolving some lye in water and adding aluminum foil.

Bubbles off hydrogen.

And I’m sure lye is alot cheaper than gallium.

In either case, the energy used to make the aluminum is greater than the energy gotten from the hydrogen, so more efficient batteries are a much better solution.


101 posted on 05/17/2007 2:30:56 PM PDT by djf (Skulz wurk gud! My last Wopper was purfict!)
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To: CarrotAndStick

Well, the original poster said “oxygen” and you said “air”. Air is mostly nitrogen (77%?), which has a dampening effect on combustion. There is still oxidation happening — and those are small explosions — but the alumina coating forms and keeps the reaction in air from running away so only a very small amount of the aluminum is reacting.

The article, however, is about water rather than air or pure oxygen. Water doesn’t have the dampening effect of nitrogen, and a pound of aluminum oxidized in water produces 2kwh of heat in addition to the work done in splitting the water. That’s a lot of heat but still not the explosion you’d get if you reacted pure oxygen with the aluminum gallium mixture.


102 posted on 05/17/2007 2:38:17 PM PDT by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: saganite

This is interesting, and not the first process that generates hydrogen “on demand” for an internal combustion engine. Electrical enerby is being used in a process to power an internal combustion engine with nascent hydrogen and oxygen. There is significantly more energy available recombining nascent hydrogen and oxygen than there is in combusting hydrogen (H2) with oxygen (O2).


103 posted on 05/17/2007 2:48:14 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: Oberon

“That’s legitimate...fuel is a an energy storage medium, after all...but it appears doubtful to me that this technology will ever become really competitive with fossil fuels. Not this century, anyway.”

I think the important point is that it is really dependent only on the cost of electricity, and we have many options on how to produce it. It does not depend on petroleum reserves that are not under our control, and it does not depend on choosing between food and energy uses from crops as ethanol or biodiesel does.

Those seem to be important points to me. It is true that the same can be said about batteries and electric vehicles. But this technology seems cheaper and more energy dense as a carrier than any of the battery technologies I’ve seen. According to the article, the aluminum is carrying 4.4kwh per kg ! That is compared to 0.2kwh per kg for li-ion batteries. Even including the full weight of the water and apparatus, it is still four times as energy dense as li-ion batteries.


104 posted on 05/17/2007 2:52:56 PM PDT by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: Red Badger

Even at night ? I think you might have to get up much higher than the clouds. There’s the rub.


105 posted on 05/17/2007 2:55:27 PM PDT by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: saganite

Gasoline engines already produce a lot of water vapor in addition to the CO2 produced.

So the real question is how many kilos of water vapor per mile are produced from a hydrogen vehicle (fuel-cell or ICE) compared to the equivalent gasoline vehicle ? Maybe it isn’t a lot more ?

Personally, I don’t think all that water vapor hurts the air quality here in LA at all ! I think the moisture starved landscape sucks it up before it ever becomes a greenhouse problem.


106 posted on 05/17/2007 3:12:27 PM PDT by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: Kellis91789

That works for LA. I live in a somewhat more humid environment.

Good point about the water vapor from gasoline engines. I’ve never seen a discussion about the advantages or disadvantages of hydrogen in that regard.


107 posted on 05/17/2007 3:23:42 PM PDT by saganite (Billions and billions and billions----and that's just the NASA budget!)
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To: Paradox

Where are you getting your numbers from ? We have daytime capacity problems, but excess electrical generation capacity at night.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat3p2.html

From the above DOE numbers, we have an overall 150,000MW excess generating capacity. If every gasoline vehicle in the country was replaced with either electric and charged at night, or using this aluminum oxidation tech and the aluminum was recycled at night, it would use less than half of the existing excess electrical generating capacity.


108 posted on 05/17/2007 3:32:45 PM PDT by Kellis91789 (Liberals aren't atheists. They worship government -- including human sacrifices.)
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To: CertainInalienableRights; 3Lean
Could any of the water that occurs as a byproduct of combustion be used in the aluminum/hydrogen process?
I think that that fairly obviously is true. The water, in such case, turns out to be merely a catalyst in a reaction which ultimately just oxidizes aluminum, delivering fuel to an engine or fuel cell, which gives you your water back as steam to be condensed and recycled.

109 posted on 05/17/2007 3:46:38 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The idea around which liberalism coheres is that NOTHING actually matters except PR.)
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To: saganite
Combusting hydrogen in an engine produces only water as waste.

Only if you "combust" it in a pure oxygen atmosphere. If you use air, you also get oxides of nitrogen, NOx.

110 posted on 05/17/2007 8:49:24 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: saganite
This isn’t about cheaper fuel but less polluting fuel.

It's also fuel we could produce right here (the Alumina can recycled), rather than subsidizing the Angry Ayatollahs and Mad Mullahs, directly or indirectly. It also reduces the need to burn valuable chemical feed stocks.

111 posted on 05/17/2007 8:58:29 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: Kellis91789

Oh okay, thanks!


112 posted on 05/17/2007 9:06:56 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: Red Badger
350 pounds of aluminum! The tank would be the size of a trunk!......

Aluminum-Gallium alloy. It might be denser than aluminum, might not. Although a 350 pound block of aluminum isn't as big as you might think. Aluminum weighs 0.098 lb/in^3. Thus 350 pounds would be about 3700 cubic inches. That's a cube about 15 inches on a side. Or 30 inches x 15 inches X 7.5 inches. About the size of a gasoline tank. Put another way, that's about 15.8 gallons, again about the size of typical gasoline tank.

113 posted on 05/17/2007 9:09:49 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: Ditto
With a processing plant with it's own dedicated solar or wind farm, the 40% capacity might not be a problem and there is no issue with long distance transmission lines.

Except that you do have to transport the final product. Since it's solid (pellets), you probably can't move it by pipeline, which leaves trains and trucks. Highways and rail lines are even more expensive than transmission lines.

But that doesn't mean it's not a viable idea, you'd just have run the numbers.

114 posted on 05/17/2007 9:13:50 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: P8riot

We don’t have to spend a few hundred million bucks defending our access to the raw materials.


115 posted on 05/17/2007 9:18:52 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Oberon
but it appears doubtful to me that this technology will ever become really competitive with fossil fuels. Not this century, anyway.

This time last century, well maybe a little before, they didn't think fossil fuels would replace oats as a source of power for vehicles.

92 1/2 years is a Long Time.

By then we might be getting the aluminum from the moon and using solar energy to refine it, or the Jihadies may have nuked us all by then. (Presumably we'll have nuked 'em back, unless there's a Rat President at the time, in which case we'd ask why they hate us so much).

116 posted on 05/17/2007 9:27:46 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: CarrotAndStick
"Liquid aluminum reacts very violently with oxygen..."

I'd believe it. Back in shop class in school we had a small fire in the induction furnace when the teacher was melting aluminum for sand castings. Liquid aluminum burns nicely in plain air. If it was in an oxygen environment at atmospheric pressure, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it.

I was at an industrial site once, where they had had a leak from an oxygen line. Nobody had realized there was an oxygen-rich zone downwind of the leak, because they didn't know about the leak. A guy driving through in a VW Beetle (old style) had enough sparkage in his alternator or elsewhere, or hot muffler parts, that the car caught fire going through the oxygen cloud. The guy got out in time, but the car was just a fried hulk. They left the rusted carcass of the car by the side of the road, to remind people how dangerous the oxygen could be if it leaked. In a pure oxygen atmosphere you can practically start a fire by rubbing your hands together. I realize that was steel, not aluminum, but liquid aluminum is certainly flamable. I wouldn't want to see the combination.
117 posted on 05/17/2007 9:34:17 PM PDT by omnivore
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To: Red Badger
Above the clouds, the sun is always shining.......

Well, you have to go quite aways above the clouds for the sun to be always shining. I guess you could be in an orbit that precessed in a such a way as to keep in aligned with the terminator. Then you wouldn't have to so very high. Be tricky though.

118 posted on 05/17/2007 9:37:51 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: omnivore

Interesting!


119 posted on 05/17/2007 9:38:16 PM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: saganite
Review this

120 posted on 05/17/2007 9:46:10 PM PDT by Wolverine (A Concerned Citizen)
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