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To: CottShop
Speciation is fact- we don’t dispute that. These aren’t examples of NEW species

You admit speciation, but deny new species? Speciation IS new species! I don't understand this position.

they are examples of genetic variability in the SAME species KIND

There you go again. If you're equating "species" and "kinds" (by which creationists normally mean "created kinds") then you're denying speciation. But you say you don't deny speciation.

Provided you ascribe to the priori beleifs and preconceptions of how old the earth ‘should be’ given that evolution needs a long time to operate. Again, all assumptions.

I don't think you're aware of the history the science of geology. Therefore you are entirely missing the point.

The conclusion that the earth was exceedingly ancient in comparison to the time scale of human history (albeit before "absolute" dating via radioactive isotope ratios was possible) was reached by geologists BEFORE biological evolution was at issue, BEFORE Darwin was out of knee pants, and BY GEOLOGISTS WHO WERE TO A MAN CREATIONISTS.

Many of these geologists had previously attempted to construct or apply schemes that accommodated a global flood and a young earth, or at least a young age and biblical time scale for post flood deposits. They would have been perfectly happy for the evidence to have accommodated such efforts. It did not. It was the evidence, driving them against their biases, which caused them to accept that the earth was ancient.

You want to believe that scientists only concluded that the earth is old because it "had to be" because of evolution. But your belief is wrong. It isn't merely wrong as a matter of opinion; it is wrong as a FACT OF HISTORY.

That's all I have time for now.

315 posted on 05/15/2007 6:18:34 PM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Stultis

[You admit speciation, but deny new species? Speciation IS new species! I don’t understand this position]

I’m sorry- I should have been more precise- good catch. I should have stated that speciation doesn’t result in new KINDS- they are still the same species. a finch will always be a finch and never become a fly (or whatever you wish to suggest) as I metioned, there often is wildly differing variability within KINDS (I said species, but should have said KINDS), yet KINDS will remain KINDS, and we have ample proofs of KINDS varying to a great degree- even to the point of speciation- what we do NOT have however are KINDS becoming other KINDS through all these suppsoed accumulations of small mutations- the evidence simply is not there to support this hypothesis- to suggest it happens is to leave the realm of knowns and enter the realm of assumptions. Created kinds in no way denies speciation. How do you suggest it does? Speciation does nothign to undermine the created kind hypothesis.

[You want to believe that scientists only concluded that the earth is old because it “had to be” because of evolution. But your belief is wrong. It isn’t merely wrong as a matter of opinion; it is wrong as a FACT OF HISTORY.]

Symantics- As you point out folks beleivedcin old age BEFORE- meaning even before they had all these so called ‘accurate dating methods’ that we have today- so of course they HAD to rely on priori beliefs as to how old the THOUGHT the earth was. And, even though we have different measuring methods today, we still MUST go with a priori beleif of wicked old age due to the fact that the mthods have nothign with which to calibrate the methods with. The priori beleif comes into play, and simply throws out any dates given that don’t support that priori belief.

[Many of these geologists had previously attempted to construct or apply schemes that accommodated a global flood and a young earth, or at least a young age and biblical time scale for post flood deposits. They would have been perfectly happy for the evidence to have accommodated such efforts. It did not.]

Actually some indeed did support it, however, priori beleifs denied the evidences. There are evidences all over the world that suggest a global catastrophy happened, yet those who beleiuve in old age earth deny it or explain them away with more assumptions.


316 posted on 05/15/2007 6:41:21 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: Stultis

to quickly clear up any confusion, Species can lose enough information that they are no longer able to breed with one another- and yes, this would make them a new subspecies, however, it does not make them another kind. It is a form of regression, not advancement, and is contrary to the macroevolutionary model.

Yuo mentioned the supposed homology of the notochord, and science has attempted to prove common homology, yet clearly homology is not seen in all species. The worm you mention has the notocord, true, however, we don’t find worms with spines- just the notochords.

“Efforts to correlate homology with developmental pathways, however, have been uniformly unsuccessful. First, similar developmental pathways may produce very dissimilar features. At the molecular level, it is well known that virtually identical inducers may participate in the development of non-homologous structures in different animals. (Gilbert, 1994) At the multicellular level, the pattern of embryonic cell movements which generates body form in birds also generates body form in a few species of frogs. (Elinson, 1987) And even at the organismal level, morphologically indistinguishable larvae may develop into completely different species. (de Beer, 1958) Clearly, similar developmental pathways may produce dissimilar results.”


318 posted on 05/15/2007 6:55:05 PM PDT by CottShop
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