On the “glass house” matter.
Though the specifics of many punishments for “sins” commanded in the old testament, are not considered biblical commands, with that specificity, to “Christians”, many of the “sins” that those old testament punishments referred to did continue to carry equal weight of “sinfulness” to “Christians” and Jews, and many punishments relative to those sins, in the early centuries of Christianity and up through the late Medieval age would be considered “inhumane” or “brutal” in the context of most “western” Jewish and Christian societies today.
The larger difference is that Islamic fundamentalist movements today seek the protection of or restoration of 7th century Islamic culture; a 7th century culture that we reject more than, but just as well as we would reject domination today by 7th century European “Christian” religious culture, and it’s influence on “law and punishment” with respect to “sin”.
The larger difference is that Islamic fundamentalists seek to restore a “pure” Islam and a pure culture founded on Islam, which was the culture that destroyed their “Empire” because its brutality and domination was (1)rejected by the west, and (2)that rejection led to the crusades which led to the Renaissance, which led to the “reformation” and the Enlightenment, which steadily moved western culture from its own 7th century rigidities - a process that the Shia Mullahs of Iran, the Wahabi clerics of Saudi Arabia, the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic fundamentalists seek to prevent from happening within Islam and within cultures dominated by Islam.
I am not saying this to advocate for or promote “Islam”, only to layout the rejectionist mode (rejection of internal critical debate of Islamic thought and rejection of “secular” authority) that all modern fundamentalist Islamic movements have as the starting point of their own brand of Islamic political thought. They seek a return to the 7th and 8th centuries, as the “high point” of Islamic thought.
Thanks from some comments on the glass house matter.
You said — “Though the specifics of many punishments for “sins” commanded in the old testament, are not considered biblical commands, with that specificity, to “Christians”, many of the “sins” that those old testament punishments referred to did continue to carry equal weight of “sinfulness” to “Christians” and Jews, and many punishments relative to those sins, in the early centuries of Christianity and up through the late Medieval age would be considered “inhumane” or “brutal” in the context of most “western” Jewish and Christian societies today.”
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Okay, what you say is true. But, the question is “Why is it true?” Is it merely that as society moved along (in its progession through history) that it drifted further away from God’s absolute commands, or that society is simply rejecting what God has said? Is that it?
If that’s it, and the reason why we’re not taking them seriously today is simply that we reject God’s original commands and/or that we’re drifting away from what God originally commanded for us — then we’ve got a problem.
The problem is that we’re *not being faithful* to God’s original commands — in that case.
HOWEVER, that’s not what I was saying in response to this issue. And I see I’m “getting it” from “both sides” (i.e., the side that wants to say that this is a God I want nothing to do with, and the side that says we’re not doing as God told us to do).
What I’m saying is that this has to be seen in light of (1) whom the commands were meant for, and (2) that these conditions that they were meant for, no longer exist today (i.e., in terms of “national Israel and the “dispensation” that we’re in).
In saying that, again, I get it from both sides. The one side saying that God doesn’t change and we have to maintain his standards, while the other side says that — if you’re not accepting this God of the Old Testament and are dong something different now, then He must have been a figment of your imagination (back then).
But, no..., God is exactly who He is, He hasn’t changed; He remains the same; He doesn’t change the standards. This is definitely understood — within the context — of dispensationalism, from that — that we’re currently in the Age of Grace.
God does uphold all those standards, and He did intend for national Israel to enforce them exactly as He gave them. This was the dispensation (or age) of Law. The Jews *failed* in those duties and responsibility that God gave them, that “test” that He gave them. So, God removed that divinely-granted sovereignty of national Israel from them — and they are *no longer* in a position to act upon or enforce *any* of those commands that He gave to them (in the capactity of “national Israel”, although “individuals” can still practice *certain* aspects of it on their own, but that doesn’t meet the requirements of “national Israel”).
And since these commands were *never* given to the Gentiles and since with the passing of the dispensation of “the law” — we have now entered (at the time of Jesus Christ), the age or dispensation of Grace. National Israel is no longer operative. A new set of conditions and requirements and responsibilities have been laid down upon mankind and it’s *not* those which were laid down to national Israel.
Now, we’re in the Age of Grace in which the Law points to sin (i.e., exposes it and makes it “that much more sinful”) thus pointing the way to salvation through Jesus Christ, which derives from the Grace extended to us from God the Father, through His Son, Jesus, the Messiah of Israel.
The Law is still the same, the requirements of all of the 613 commandments (given to national Israel) do not apply to us, but the universal law of God does apply in terms of setting up God’s “standard” and pointing out the sin condition that is inherent in all of mankind (as the Apostle Paul so abundantly makes clear).
We are to “proclaim the Gospel” in this “Age of Grace” and we are *not* to take up the laws which were given to national Israel (they are not here now) for the purpose of enforcement.
And it’s true that government authorities are placed here by God for the punishment (and control) of evil-doers — but it must also be recognized that there is *no requirement* that these government authorities take up the commands which were given to national Israel and it’s methods for dealing with sin (i.e., one example being death for cursing parents, or stoning for a violation of the law, in one respect or the other). In fact, we see that government authorities *rarely ever* enforce any of the aspects of the laws of national Israel, only restraining evil to a *bare minimum* — at the best. So, that is a far cry from carrying out the commands as God gave them to national Israel.
In light of the above analysis, then we can see, the “process” by which God is working in the world, and that He works in different time periods (those “dispensations”) in which he gives a “test” to mankind for following through and obeying those commands for that time and for those certain people. And consistently, mankind has failed every single test in *every dispensation* and will continue to do so, until Jesus Christ hands over the Kingdom to God (as we are told in the Bible), having fulfilled everything that has been foretold.
Life here on this earth has been a “test” for mankind, corporately speaking and individually speaking (as each of us goes about our daily lives).
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In regards to Islam and what it’s trying to do, it’s okay to look at it in a historical context and see what is trying to be accomplished. But, this should give it absolutely no validity at all, no matter what historical context into which it is placed.
The reason it should be given absolutely no validity, is that they are not following (or ever started with) the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Bible, the One who sent Jesus as the Messiah of Israel, the promised one, first promised from the time of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They are operating from an *anti-God* position — one which fits the *characteristics* of Satan, as he is specifically described in the Bible. Thus, from that description of Satan, we have to conclude that Islam was started as a “demonic act” of Satan, relaying lies and hatred to Mohammed, who then converted them into the “reality” (on this earth) of Islam.
No matter what their history is and no matter what kinds of justifications they may want to bring to the table, they are simply an outgrowth of demonic intrigues, directed towards Mohammed, and accomplished with his enthusiastic help.
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You said — “The larger difference is that Islamic fundamentalists seek to restore a “pure” Islam and a pure culture founded on Islam, which was the culture that destroyed their “Empire” because its brutality and domination was (1)rejected by the west, and (2)that rejection led to the crusades which led to the Renaissance, which led to the “reformation” and the Enlightenment, which steadily moved western culture from its own 7th century rigidities - a process that the Shia Mullahs of Iran, the Wahabi clerics of Saudi Arabia, the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamic fundamentalists seek to prevent from happening within Islam and within cultures dominated by Islam.”
Well, to state it so antiseptically and in such non-moral terms (”rejected by the west”) — makes it sound as if they said, “No thanks, I’ve looked it over but I don’t think I’ll buy into that. Thanks anyway...”
Nope..., they had to fight for their mere survival, having been attacked by the Muslim hoards, trying to kill and subjugate entire regions of the West. Then they decided to “take the fight to them” instead and that resulted in the Crusades.
It’s the same way today. Once again, Islam is not merely giving an academic discussion and saying, “Well..., what do you think about our wonderful religion...?” Nope, they’re blowing up buildings, ships, shooting down planes, and taking down buildings in New York City. Once again, they’ve decided to take the war to the West and bring it right to our own doorstep. They took the first move and now — we’re responding and we’ve taken the fight over there — just like happened before in history.
And their “religion” is not a religion, actually. That’s where most peple fall short in their analysis of this situation. It’s actually a “religio-fanataical-governmental idealogy” which is called Islam, and which was started by a maniacal and oppressive dictator, listening to the evil lies of Satan, in order to oppress and subjugate the entire region that he lived in — with the purpose of doing the same to the entire world. They are once again acting on that original purpose of Mohammed, carrying out this evil intent with their many evil deeds.