[DelphiUser]

I said: FC, in your studies of Mormonism have you ever encountered one shred of evidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God?”

You responded: No, I can sincerely tell you that having made a lifetime hobby of examining odd religions, you beat even the Scientologists for the “not even close” award.

So you are deaf to testimony, deaf to scripture, deaf to witnesses, Deaf to the amazing things he has accomplished, yet you shut your eyes and claim it is all a trick.

How can you be an objective observer?

How can anyone accept your posts as well thought out?

I cut out all the “Comparisons with other religious leaders” because it is not relevant.

Same question applies.

Yes, it does, having studied a bit of Buddhism I can see how it descended from knowledge of God, Most protestant churches have much truth in them, the Catholics have a lot to offer, but to you Mormonism has nothing? No proofs, no wisdom, no truth?

And I can certainly accept that a certain amount of slippage will occur when well meaning people try to find a path to God.

“A certain amount of slippage”, you mean loss of information? So would you admit that different amounts of slippage will occur for different people? If yes, then you are stating that I am at 100% slippage, and you are at 0? This is a situation that simply cannot be.

But Mormons really take the cake. Joseph Smith has so many leading indicators towards being an utter fraud that I’d rather roll the dice with Mary Baker Eddy or L. Ron.

What was the phrase? Yeah, Yeah, yeah I have heard this all before. I have been told that people would eat their hats, and do other amazing, embarrassing and or dangerous things if Joseph Smith were actually a prophet. People also called Jesus a charlatan, and for many of the same reason " And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?".

Many of the “non believers” (is that better than Antis?) try to “Prove” the gospel either right or wrong, you do not want Faith to be involved at all, you want, you want, you want. When you cannot prove it true, you say you have proved it false. You begin to look for anything that can prove the falsity of what you cannot prove true. There will always be evidence to prove what you have already decided is true, Always.

All you can prove in a matter of faith is that you do not believe.

That’s how far I’ve been convinced by this thread in opposition, this nailed the lid shut.

I am so glad you’ve kept an open mind until now (LOL) if you had an open mind you would have at least listed testimony as the only evidence for Joseph Smith.

Don’t you find it at least strange that a boy of 14 in upstate NY, started a movement that drew many millions of people, Drained “un-drainable swamps, Designed and built cities, drew architectural plans, wrote books, inspired millions to better themselves preached of Christ with a doctrine that is still debated today and all this from a boy who had, if I remember correctly, a fourth grade education? No?

What have you done with your life?

[Colofornian]

Don’t you find it at least strange that a boy of 14 in upstate NY, started a movement that drew many millions of people, Drained “un-drainable swamps, Designed and built cities, drew architectural plans, wrote books, inspired millions to better themselves preached of Christ with a doctrine that is still debated today and all this from a boy who had, if I remember correctly, a fourth grade education? No?

Muhammad wasn't very literate. Look at its size today.

JoeSmith wasn't a "boy of 14" when he started the movement. Another myth you've bought into.

As far as "inspiring millions," if I'd plagiarized enough Scripture from the book of Isaiah, the NT, even quoting OT prophets a few hundreds year before they wrote what they wrote--like JS did in one instance--then circulate wide enough & long enough, its truth contained therein is meant to "inspire."

Give me the greatest-tasting cookie recipe in the history of man, let me "borrow it" for widespread circulation, and I could make a lot of "dough." (But what if I was to tell folks who died 30 yrs after eating plenty of those cookies that the reason they were dying is that they were slowing being poisoned to death because of a few "extra" ingredients I added...Oh sure, after tasting one they were "inspired" to eat more...but only to their own demise)

[greyfoxx39]

“non believers” (is that better than Antis?)

Very good.

[tantiboh]

“When you cannot prove it true, you say you have proved it false. You begin to look for anything that can prove the falsity of what you cannot prove true. There will always be evidence to prove what you have already decided is true, Always.

All you can prove in a matter of faith is that you do not believe.”

Well said.

[FastCoyote]

“So you are deaf to testimony, deaf to scripture, deaf to witnesses, Deaf to the amazing things he has accomplished, yet you shut your eyes and claim it is all a trick. How can you be an objective observer? How can anyone accept your posts as well thought out?”

You guys are nutjobs. I could claim the exact same deafness, blindness, ignorance, intolerance etc. of you and have a symmetrical case. So get off your high horse.

“Don’t you find it at least strange that a boy of 14 in upstate NY, started a movement that drew many millions of people, Drained “un-drainable swamps, Designed and built cities, drew architectural plans, wrote books, inspired millions to better themselves preached of Christ with a doctrine that is still debated today and all this from a boy who had, if I remember correctly, a fourth grade education? No?”

You forgot the parts about fornicating with 40 women, ran a bank pyramid scheme, faked the writing of the Book of Mormon and got ran out of town on a rail just about everywhere he went.

“What have you done with your life?”

I’ve exposed a lot of Mormons as frauds - that ought to be worth a lot at judgement day. Which reminds me, it’s time to turn in the Temple Mormon who is cheating the IRS of taxes on about $5 million. He didn’t seem like such a nice guy the Christmas he and his son threatened to beat me up for asking where the books to the business were.

[Diamond]

Don’t you find it at least strange that a boy of 14 in upstate NY, started a movement that drew many millions of people, Drained “un-drainable swamps, Designed and built cities, drew architectural plans, wrote books, inspired millions to better themselves preached of Christ with a doctrine that is still debated today and all this from a boy who had, if I remember correctly, a fourth grade education? No?

I for one do find it very strange in some respects, but you left out a few details:

"Few Mormons today can grasp the polarizing charisma of their founding prophet. Some may feel uncomfortable when confronted with the full scope of Joseph Smith's activities as youthful mystic, treasure-seeker, visionary, a loving husband who deceived his wife regarding about forty of his polygamous marriages, a man for whom friendship and loyalty meant everything but who provoked disaffection by "testing" the loyalty of his devoted associates, an anti-Mason who became a Master Mason, church president who physically assaulted both Mormons and non-Mormons for insulting him, a devoted father who loved to care for his own children and those of others, temperance leader and social drinker, Bible revisionist and esoteric philosopher, city planner, pacifist and commander-in-chief, student of Hebrew and Egyptology, bank president, jail escapee, healer, land speculator, mayor, judge and fugitive from justice, guarantor of religious freedom but limiter of freedom of speech and press, preacher and street-wrestler, polygamist and advocate of women's rights, husband of other men's wives, a declared bankrupt who was the trustee-in-trust of church finances, political horse-trader, U.S. presidential candidate, abolitionist, theocratic king, inciter to riot, and unwilling martyr (Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, pp. 261-262).

Cordially,