They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

Saundra Duffy

[bethtopaz]

If you’re a Reagan fan, remember Reagan changed his mind on social issues, also.

It’s a mark of maturity to be able to look honestly at issues in the light of evidence and change one’s mind.

[restornu]

I didn’t know his father invested in Bain Captial Imagine that...

Was not his father pass away before Bain Capital?

[Colofornian]

The fact is, there are verses on this topic in the Bible that are contradictory.

Lots of marriages are an apparent contradiction. Two folks who don't seemingly belong in the same household.

But despite the apparent conflict, many get along just fine...at least over the long haul. They often complement each other.

Faith "vs". works

Listen, I don't pit faith and works as enemies unless works undermines faith. And that's exactly how Paul framed it for the Galatians ("you foolish Galatians," he said...see verses below).

Let's face it, faith and works can not only be perfect friends, but are meant to be "married."

Now that doesn't mean they are "married" in that one group (evangelicals) stresses faith and another group (Mormons) stress works.

But think about it. Why would works mean anything at all for someone who never or rarely exhibited faith in Jesus Christ and a life beyond this world? So I know when LDS try to pit works against faith, they don't mean a "faithless works."

Likewise what's a faith & trust never embodied? Why would I entrust myself to another in marriage, for example, if "love in action" was never or rarely a part of that. So I know when some Evangelicals try to pit faith against works, they don't mean a "disabled faith."

So your proposal to "agree to disagree" makes no sense if all you're doing is calling one group or the other to surrender to the above straw men perspectives of the other. Nor would it have made sense for Paul to surrender to the flesh & law-focused Galatians. So what exactly did the Galatians embrace about works that sabotages faith?

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?...He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit...doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gal 3:3, 5-6)

In the case of these Galatians, they were actually allowing their flesh-based works to undermine their faith.

For Paul, what people group was the opposite of the Galatians? It was the Philippians:

(1) Whereas the Galatians started "in the Spirit" and were trying to finish in the flesh by obeying laws, look at what Paul promised to the Philippians: "...he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:6)

So again. Who is "performing this work?" Mere men called Philippians? No!!! God!!! God is the performer THROUGH US! [Who gets the credit & glory? He does!]

(2) In an earlier post I cited Phil 2:12 needs to be rounded out with v. 13. They are not "contradictory." What? you think Paul is "full of contradictions" in the very same paragraph?

Phil 2:13: "For it is God which worketh in you..." Whose working in you? Your puny power? Your puffed-up obedience? Your prideful spiritual merit badges? Yet we know that if God works in us, we know we alone are never His only "targets."

So anybody truly experiencing His work IN our lives, will also experience His work THRU our lives. So that salvation is "worked out." The very meaning of "work out your own salvation" carries the same connotation as your fitness exercise. Because our bodies are fit and worthy to carry out exercise, we do so. (It's the ailing who can't work out)

But we'd never be fit had we never been GIVEN healthy bodies. Works are always a by-product of faith. Faith WORKS.

So stop trying to pit works against faith. Because the only time when works truly nullifies faith is when folks sabotage it to the degree that Paul calls them fools.

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." (Gal. 2:21)

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse...But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident:for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith..." (Gal. 3:10-12a)

[ktscarlett66]

I attended the same Presbyterian church for most of my life - lasted through many ministers - and not one ever said a word about LDS or any other religion for that matter. Never heard a word about LDS in other churches I was a guest at.

I will also say that having attended the local LDS church with my husband (who attended sporadically with his family growing up), I am underwhelmed by it. Too many attempts to control what I consider to be my private life. And I’m sick to death of the home teachers just popping in because they ‘happened to be in the area’ just as I’m trying to get Sunday dinner on the table. Shouldn’t they be with their own familes then? Sheesh. I’m also not impressed with *their* attempts to show me the error of my ways and that my church is no good because theirs is the Only True Church. I also not impressed with their dancing around certain subjects when I ask a question. They never fully answer anything. And yes, this is more than one HT too, over the years.

I’m not good LDS wife material, I’m afraid.

[sevenbak]

Just because it didn't happen in your town or involve your church doesn't mean it didn't happen elsewhere. Just like all those alledged Sunday services pouting anti Mormon rhetoric, that I personally haven't heard.

One of the things that make this assertion so hard to believe is that unlike the thousands of different Christian sects that teach different things, the LDS Church is very structured. In fact, some of these threads that have been turned into Anti Mormon banging posts have condemned us for it.

The structure is such that the same thing is taught all over the world, be it in Anaheim or Algiers. On a given Sunday, for example, if one congregation in California is learning of specifics about the atonement of Christ, that same lesson is being taught that dame day in a remote village meetinghouse in Africa.

The structure is there to protect the doctrines and practices of the church from being changed. Tithing receipts and practices are also highly structured, and are the exact same from ward to ward. Doing something outside of official sanctioned practices, especially in matters of sacred tithing stewardship's, can be grounds for excommunication.

So, here's a test whither or not I'm right about consistency... Today in Gospel Doctrine (Sunday School) the lesson was on Christ healing the blind man on the Sabbath, John 9. As this year we are studying the New Testament by course, I am asking if any of the other LDS posters out there had the same lesson, or one within a week or 2 of it?

[Colofornian]

We’re not going to convince each other, so why get worked up over it?

Now you're confusing me. First you and Restornu emphasize "working out" our faith. But "working up" our faith is out of bounds?

If you'er not open to being convinced, then why do you ever bother to open Scripture or listen to a speaker? Why do you tune into the weatherman if he may not "convince" you, for example, about your opinion of the weather.

In other words, you're telling me that if Scripture is delivered to you in bite-sized portions from any hand other than one with "LDS" written on it, it's written off as being untrustworthy?

And then on the other side, I can never learn from talking to LDS about key issues as they cite Scripture?

[DelphiUser]

I am asking if any of the other LDS posters out there had the same lesson, or one within a week or 2 of it?

We had the same lesson, my brother had it last week, next week, we have stake conference, then we will be in sync with his ward again.

[sevenbak]

George W. Bush is a member of the United Methodist Church, which is why Southern Methodist was selected as the site for his presidential library.

Since Bush didn’t go to SMU, does this mean that if Romney wins, his library will be at BYU? ;-) I think he’d rather have it at Harvard.

[DelphiUser]

One more thing, my dad was a bishop most of the time I was growing up (which explains one source I had for the General handbook of instructions) five years after he was released, he put on a suit he had not worn in five years and discovers three tithing envelopes in it. (Lots of people hand their tithing to the bishop, or his councilors between meetings or in the halls). My father called his stake president immediately (after checking all his suits for more envelopes) and confessed. They had to hold a church Court; he was tried on misappropriation of tithing funds and was acquitted (turning himself in helped a lot). The total amount in the tithing envelopes was less than fifteen dollars.

The Church takes tithing, and the systems by which it is handled very seriously.

Netizen, you should probaly also see my post #967

[sevenbak]

Did a little searching and found this. Seems to be an ex Mormon site,

You really should go to the Ford dealership if you want info on a Mustang. Picking up the literature on the Chevy Camaro won't tell you all the facts that the other car dealer has. If what you really want is a Camaro, then buy it, but the Mustang facts are at the dealer and out there with all the happy mustang drivers worldwide. OK, that's my parable for the night...

[restornu]

Wow what ward are you in I never had that experience which my visiting teacher would at least call!:)

I think the Church would really frown upon that behavior because unless there is some kind of bonding, the most VT ever do is give the lesson for the month from the Ensign and ofter to help should one be over whelmed!

The VT I have had would always call in advance of when we could get togather and I must say I was not always been available so a phone was counted that the VT did make an effort!

[red irish]

I lived in Vegas during my High School years,many moons ago. And was also a Mormon back then.I was young and only interested in their youth programs that had to do with volleyball and softball. People for the most part were very nice but not being able to drink colas never really caught on with me. My dad being a drunk did come to one of my softball games and made me proud. He never smoked one time or drank that day. Only time I can ever remember him doing anything like that. I do remember being told that if I didn’t go to church I could not be on the softball team. I kept playing and they didn’t really know how to make somebody go to church. Faith and theology had nothing to do with my experience and over all it was nice.Loved Vegas and wish some day I could go back and visit.

[red irish]

Listening to the holy spirit is the smartest thing said on this thread so far.

[sevenbak]

This reminds me of my niece. Her best friend is from a baptist family. She has gone to her Church a couple of times, and today her friend came to my nieces ward. I’m telling this story because our wards share the same building, and from an adjoining office, I heard this absolutely amazing testimony being born, so I poked my head in. IT was a woman literally pounding the pulpit and speaking loudly, like they do in revival meetings. It was beautiful, her testimony and faith of Christ was so strong.

She was a woman from Trinidad. Here is her story in a nutshell: As I only caught part of it, I asked my sister to give me what she could remember, here it is. It’s a remarkable testimony of Christ, enjoy!

She is from Trinidad, I think her name is Sister Cisinero or something close.
We don’t know who she is or who she might have been visiting with. I talked to her briefly after church and told her that her testimony was wonderful and that it was perfect timing for our Baptist friend who was here today. She had 2 or 3 girls with her. I’m assuming her daughters. She wasn’t hanging around
with anyone in particular.
She said that her mother was a Baptist preacher but I didn’t catch that
part.

When she first started speaking, I think just about everyone looked at the
Bishop to see what he would do. I think we were all thinking “Who is this?
What is going on? This is radical!” But as we listened to her testimony, I
don’t know that there was a dry eye in the building. I know I was crying. It think there were a lot of dropped jaws. She had such
an amazing testimony of Jesus Christ!

She said that in Trinidad she was part of the Baptist church. On occasion
she would feel the spirit but it wasn’t a constant feeling and she wanted
that feeling. Then she and her family moved to California and she couldn’t
find any churches there that gave her the spiritual feeling that she needed.
She desperately wanted to find the right church to help her teach her
children.

She started praying for God to help her find the right way and “Knock,
knock, knock” (this is on the podium) in the middle of her prayer there were
the missionaries at her door. She invited them in, fed them a meal and sent
them on their way. This happened another time and she couldn’t figure out
why these missionaries always interrupted her prayers. One time, she
actually went out on the street and looked up and down both ways to make
sure they weren’t anywhere around and went in to pray. But they knocked
again while she was praying. Finally after a move back to Trinidad and then
back again to California and the missionaries interrupting her prayers
numerous times over about 8 years, her husband invited the missionaries over to hear their message and basically the rest is history.

One night she had some kind of dream where she saw a map of the world, and felt like they were supposed to pack up and move to Utah, though she had no idea where it was or why she felt that way... and here they are. They got to meet the prophet up in Salt Lake City and her little girl got to give him a big hug.

Oh, and she said that after she decided to take the lessons and get baptized
all Hell broke loose and things got very, very hard. But it was another
testimony to them that this was God’s church and Satan was trying to keep
them from it.

After she finished bearing her testimony, I don’t know that anyone else
wanted to follow. It’s like it would have been anticlimactic. I know a lot
of people were going, “Wow!”

We feel like she was sent to testify to our friend who came today. Today was his third time going to church with us. His family is totally against him, and even though they don’t attend their own, they don’t want him going to “that cult”.

[red irish]

that is because Kerry was a Catholic in name only.

[sevenbak]

It would be very difficult. One major hotel chain is replacing the Bible with Gore’s book, though.

I think you missed the intent of my post. Next time you stay in a Marriott chain, look in the drawer by the bed. There is a green Gideon Bible and a Blue Book of Mormon in each room. The fact that there is also pay-for-porn in some of the bigger hotels so bothersome, and makes me sad. I think if JW Marriott had complete control, he would not have allowed that, but I can's speak for him so who knows for sure.

[red irish]

There are many pastors of many churches,my own included,that do not preach the Gospel they go through the motions. For me that is a clear sign of the beginning of the end times. How men of God,or women,can go along with abortion and push the agenda of the homosexuals in schools to young children. It is good to have these discussions because I believe we are going to really need each other down the road. I love my faith,Catholic,but my parish can be very elite and cold. I am sick a lot and have never had a member of my church visit. In some parishes they are close and there for one another.

[sevenbak]

I'm surprised, as a Mormon you don't know the difference between the "office" and the man. Oopsy!

Colorcountry said: His office of Stake President is higher than that of Priest in a Catholic Church or Pastor in a Protestant Church

Perhaps you should have left off "His office" By including that, you left the distinct impression that Romney is still a Stake President. If I misunderstood your intent, then I'm sorry.

[restornu]

For Marriott, the decision is both more costly and more complex. With 300,000 hotel rooms, such a move would cost Marriott in excess of $30 million. But Marriott may not be able to make the change, even if it wants to. Marriott franchises its hotels, and may not be able to legally remove the services because of its contractual obligations to those that paid to be part of the chain.

[sevenbak]

Colorcountry said:They think their own perfect obedience and works will earn them Exaltation

Sevenbak said:You seem to think that Mormons are the only ones who believe it's important to keep the commandments and do good works? The bible clearly teaches this time after time. It is through Christ only that we are saved, but he expects us to do our best to keep his commandments.

Actually if you read my quote I said you think it is important to do these things in order to earn exaltation. I am surprised at how slippery you are when it comes to changing the meaning of my posts.

Why do you think I am being slippery? Because I clarified your statement of what it means to be "exhalted?" To be a joint heir with Christ is something I strive toward trying my best to keep His commandments. When I fail, he picks me up and carries me. There is simply no subversion or "slippery" attempt here Color. Please don't go there.