Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
Uh. Whatever happened to: “Then Peter and the other apostles answered [after being “commanded” that they not teach in Jesus’ name] and said, We ought to obey God rather than men?” (Acts 5:29)
So the will of slaveowners trumps the will of God that the Gospel go to slaves? Is that what you’re telling me with a straight face?
So what if the LDS favored freeing slaves back in its Mizzou days? What does it matter, REALLY, if you personally favored freeing slaves’ bodies but disfavored freeing their souls? Repent of such nonsense!!!
First, for you to leave out the important part of the context of that verses in the D&C is so telling, that I will from now on be forced to treat every one of your posts with as much respect and sincerity as the pattern which you are choosing to give them in. You do yourself and your cause a HUGE disservice by such blatant misinterpretation.
This is clearly about masters rights and the sanctity of life for the slaves, who's lives could be in jeopardy if they went against their masters wishes. The doctrines of the restoration include being judged on whatever degree of light and knowledge we have, not on wither or not all men are baptized, that's what Baptisms for the dead are for, and that's why there is a 1000 year millennium, to do all of Gods work for all his children, since the world began, for free and bonded.
This vote is only for Mormons to take as we are trying to find out who actually understands what Mormons believe, me, or CF
As for me and my house, we will choose the DU answer.
I’ll start with my definition of the label anger so you can understand where I’m coming from.
Anger is energy seeking change. If I let that energy fester and be directed at an individual or group then I believe it becomes a sin. Because that anger changes into a blame and self deception. E.G. “They are to blame so I don’t have any responsibility until they save they are sorry” kind of thinking. You end up giving away your power to choose how you feel, to another.
However, if I use that energy to move me to change, often it’s an internal change, then I can transform what has the potential to be negative and harmful into something productive and worthwhile. But this takes focused choice and desire.
Lying / bearing false witness. Hey that’s one of the big 10. So I’d have to say it is sin. But certainly a habit that could be broken.
That’s just what I’ve learned from my life experiences.
Interesting, how different? Is it hard to run or do sports?
...thereby jeopardizing the lives of men...
It ‘was’ hard, but I was able to play in HIgh School and after college to compete on a park tennis league in B’ham, AL, and years later to win my club championship in golf. But I didn’t post that data to distract the thread. Of what relevance is it to you?
Rev. 3: 21 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
So the righteous will sit in God’s throne. Is that even more arrogant?
Have you read the scriptures?
Well said. I would add that in addition to being joint heirs with Christ, and sharing the throne with God, those who are faithful will also be given a crown.
Tim. 4: 8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1 Pet. 5: 4
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
For those just coming in for this exchange at this point: Sevenbak is chastising me for not citing ALL of D&C 134:12, which I will do here:
"We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude." (D&C 134:12)
How do I plead to Sevenbak's chastisement? (Well, I do plead "guilty" to leaving out the phrase, "thereby jeopardizing the lives of men"--which to be fair, does seem to support Sevenbak's "sanctity of life" argument).
My point in addressing all of this is that it might be one thing to say "we won't interfere with bond-servants or their stations in life," but I took objection to the phrase, "neither preach the gospel to" along with the phrase at the end that the key danger beyond "jeopardizing the lives of men" (whether these saints meant slaves, slave-owners or both, they don't say as "dissatisfied slaves" could become a physical threat to slave-owners) was what I would call the illusion of "peace" of governments which tolerate slave ownership. [For more of what I mean here, just consult Abraham Lincoln's speech where he basically said that the Civil War blood was recompense/God's judgment to our nation for answering every drop of slave blood shed at the hand of an owner's whip].
Anyway, what was Sevenbak's reaction to my concern over withholding the gospel being preached to slaves? (Oh, don't worry, "...that's what Baptisms for the dead are for, and that's why there is a 1000 year millennium...")
So let me get this straight, SEVEN: You are "all for" the first part of D&C 134:12: "We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth..." but ya know, if our teens, being what they are--just teens--don't get 'round to most corners of the earth...'cause, after all, "...that's what Baptisms for the dead are for, and that's why there is a 1000 year millennium..."??? just hang loose, bro? REALLY?
And to quote Seven's already posted words, he'd probably would come right back and answer me, "Yeah, Sure, C! Ya see 'The doctrines of the restoration include being judged on whatever degree of light and knowledge we have...' and God isn't going to judge those folks we don't get 'round too seriously if they don't have much light & knowledge. Ya know, we were thinkin' it might even go a tad bit rougher if we showed up with all that light and knowledge..."
Bottom line: Seven still is trying to justify why slaves were supposedly unworthy of receiving the gospel in 1835 when D&C 134 was written. "We'll just get them on the back side of the graveyard," Seven reassures us. "We didn't want to bright up their life too much on this side of the graveyard lest the Lord hike up His level of judgment on them." "We got a 1,000-year hitch comin' up to do our gospel-sharing time vs. a 70-year hitch on this side of the veil."
Every argument, Seven, you used to justify why black slaves were supposedly "unworthy" of having the gospel preached to could be used to withhold the gospel against any people group...ANY...!!! Why bother "gospelizing" anybody or any people group if you're just going to fall back to those weasel ways.
But, we want to thank you. Because frankly, you highlight for us why the writer of Hebrews implies that "second-chance" doctrines (when no second-chance doctrines constitutes spiritual reality) wreak of the stench of death. [The Hebrews' writer wrote: "...It is appointed unto men die once, but THEN the judgment." 9:27] Only such putrid doctrines as baptizing corpses (who cares if they're "spiritual" corpses) could be used to try to justify the putrid racist doctrine of withholding the gospel from slave folks lest (to quote D&C 134:12) "such interference" constitutes behavior that is "unlawful and unjust." Well imagine that. Imagine that just suppose a group of 1835 saints did advocate such slaves were worthy of the gospel? (I mean, ya might have a civil war or something & would so many soldiers' lives be worth the expenditure?) [sarc--But isn't that just a "modern translation" of the D&C 134:12 portion that says preaching the gospel to slaves, baptizing slaves, and meddling with slaves is "dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude."]
Three whole days he was among them?
Gotta wonder how many he tried to tempt and corrupt in that time.
Good question!
Let's ask Joseph Smith Jr, the most honored prophet of mormonism --
In Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham, Chapter 2:22-25, he relates the following --
22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;
23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:
24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.
25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee.
So according to Joseph Smith, God commands lying and tempting others into lying.
But wait!
In the Book of Mormon, authored by Joseph Smith Jr (oops, I mean translated by Joseph Smith Jr, I mean authored by ... aw, never mind), we read that God takes a dim view of lying --
Ether 3:12
12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
2 Nephi 9:34
34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell
Your premise is flawed, Bonaparte. Sarai was Abraham’s sister. They shared a parent.
Again, if you believe there is a mistranslation, you are entitled to that opinion. I happen to believe the verse is correct. In fact, perhaps the verse he is quoting from the “law” is the one missing from our current text. What I accept as revealed truth leads me to believe what I quoted and why. If you have a different opinion, that’s fine.
Good verses. Thanks for the post.
My internet (which is usually stable as a rock went down mid post yesterday, aparently an idiot with a skid loader can muck up even fiber!) I will be playing catch up for a bit, and I have to work while trying, DAH!
I for one do find it very strange in some respects, but you left out a few details:
"Few Mormons today can grasp the polarizing charisma of their founding prophet. Some may feel uncomfortable when confronted with the full scope of Joseph Smith's activities as youthful mystic, treasure-seeker, visionary, a loving husband who deceived his wife regarding about forty of his polygamous marriages, a man for whom friendship and loyalty meant everything but who provoked disaffection by "testing" the loyalty of his devoted associates, an anti-Mason who became a Master Mason, church president who physically assaulted both Mormons and non-Mormons for insulting him, a devoted father who loved to care for his own children and those of others, temperance leader and social drinker, Bible revisionist and esoteric philosopher, city planner, pacifist and commander-in-chief, student of Hebrew and Egyptology, bank president, jail escapee, healer, land speculator, mayor, judge and fugitive from justice, guarantor of religious freedom but limiter of freedom of speech and press, preacher and street-wrestler, polygamist and advocate of women's rights, husband of other men's wives, a declared bankrupt who was the trustee-in-trust of church finances, political horse-trader, U.S. presidential candidate, abolitionist, theocratic king, inciter to riot, and unwilling martyr (Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, pp. 261-262).
Cordially,
Waht will you do with your crown, seven?
Nice try, but not exactly. We believe that God is God, and we are mortals, but have the opportunity to be joint heirs with him. Perhaps another reference would help.
Revelations 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. BTW, and on a different subject, John is speaking here long after Jesus went unto the Father, but even he still refers to Jesus and the Father as separate entities.
I’m a kettle corn man myself!
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