Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
OK. It's "correction" time on my assumptions. Please correct my following assumptions, since you indicate they are in error (open invite to set me straight):
My assumptions are based on the following:
Assumption (a) The Heavenly Father of the LDS has a body of flesh & bones as he was born of physical parentage;
(b) Either his parents were gods (of which there is a line of authority) [See Mormon Doctrine, p. 516: "This doctrine that there is a mother in heaven was affirmed in plainess by the First Presidency of the Church...when...they said..'that all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother'"]...Note: since many LDS use "image" of Genesis to assign divinity to humanity, I suppose we can infer that when an LDS apostle talks about "similitude" re: Heavenly Father to his parentage, that they, too, were divine.
See also: This is based upon the following LDS prophet assertion by Joseph Fielding Smith: "God is an exalted man...our Father in Heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on...promises are made to us that we may become like him" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, p.10-12).
OR the god Heavenly Father was/is subject to was of a previous generation of men or gods (in which a line of authority also existed).
(c)The fact that we know there's a "family" of gods out there is that Joseph Smith freely talked about a "divine council" of gods...referenced it in D&C 121 + the LDS Book of Abraham talks about gods counseling "among themselves" (chptr 5)
With such a "council of gods" we know that councils and forming worlds (as is the discussion of the book of Abraham) are done with order (vs. random or chaos). Therefore, order implies authority. Design implies Designer. Some Designer had either final or original authority--even if you say it was "collectively" done.
So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]
So, please set me staight. I am simply and utterly confused how a church that puts so much absolute emphasis on priesthood authority can somehow look up at the heavenlies, and say that "lines" of authority don't exist beyond our god(s), even tho we know he wasn't the original one.
Are you up for the spin of it all? You know you will not get a straight answer. Stop hounding the Apologists to tell you whole truth. They don’t have the authority to do that.
No
I am asserting that if I am dealing with an entity who is not the highest of beings, then there's always an "appelate" divine court somewhere. Now if there's no "higher" being that him, the buck stops there. And all absolute authority is there.
No. I am saying I am consistent in my view of God. He has absolute authority. He reports to no one. He has reported to anyone, as the unanswered questions he shoots out in rapid fashion toward the end of the book of Job indicates.
I don't believe you can say this simple phrase: "My heavenly father has never reported to anyone." I believe that you believe, along with all other true LDS adherers, that every question that God throws out toward the end of the book of Job could be answered by another god amongst the "council of gods"--the "divine council of gods" Joe Smith told you about.
Again, I do not base this on my own "opinion" of Mormonism. I base it on words emitted by your own prophets through the years...words like this phrase:
"The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on..." -- Joseph Fielding Smith (LDS prophet)
As long as there are "so on" gods, there's a thread of authority that runs "so forth" but who knows where (and who knows if such a thread even ever ends)
Typo. I meant to say: "He HASN'T reported to anyone..."
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.This is similar to me listening in on your boss giving you instructions on how to run payroll and going into your office on payday and writing the checks because you were not in yet.
19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.The sons of sceva were Aaronic priesthood holders because they were Levites. They figured, they had the priesthood. This was after Jesus ascension, and after the command from Jesus to his apostles, the sons of Sceva were just trying to do works in Jesus name but they did not have the authority to do so.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
We do proxy work for all the ordinances, CC.
“His high powered office, and the repetive use of Romney as an example and used for PR (just like the Church used the Osmonds, Gladys Night, Glen Beck, etc, etc) will be a way to legitimize Mormonism. This will cause great harm to Christianity that believes Christ IS God.
So by our voting for Romney, we are being unwittingly used by the LDS Church to heighten its religious standing and legitimacy. “
What a dastardly plot!
I hate too admit it, CC, but you give us far too much credit.
“Luther is a parallel to Joseph Smith and no doubt divinely inspired by the same God you claim to worship.”
I think so too. Luther paved the way for the Reformation, and thereby for the independence of the U.S. and its precept of freedom of religion.
I don’t think the LDS Church would have been able to survive without such an environment, fostered by Luther. I think he was inspired and a key part of the preparation required for the restoration of the Gospel. The same could be said of any of the reformers.
CC, not a single word of the translation of the Book of Mormon existed when it was written. English hadn’t been invented yet.
The idea that the concept for “Christ” couldn’t be translated as the word “Christ” just because the word hadn’t been invented yet when the concept was described is very poor logic indeed.
“What points of Christian doctrine are extra-Biblical?”
This is not my cup of tea, as I don’t spend much time studying it. I will refer you to DelphiUser, who is much more knowledgeable on the topic.
“I am also wondering, why do Mormons feel the Bible in and of itself is insufficient in revealing the truth about God and salvation?”
Well, all the Bible is is a collection of writings from holy men passed down through the ages. The actual writings that were included in the book were chosen rather arbitrarily. Still, the writings that are there are full of many truths and much wisdom.
But who is to say that the books that were chosen contained everything that was needful? Even among orthodox Christians, the opinions vary; the Catholics’ Bible is considerably thicker that that of Protestantism. Does that mean the extra books ascribed to by Catholicism cannot possibly be the Word of God?
Indeed, many very fundamental truths are not fully explained or clarified in the Bible. For example, the nature of the trinity was a man-made doctrine that was decided by council, rather than by revelation. Were they right? Maybe. But we can’t really tell from the Bible; many verses exist both to support and to undermine the doctrine that they defined.
Also, the Bible, for all its wisdom, cannot provide clear answers to every conceivable challenge we face today. The original Apostles didn’t have to worry about drugs, Communism, pornography, or many of the other modern problems that plague us. All we can do is kind of build a moral framework based on what the Bible tells us, then extend it to make what we think are good decisions regarding the dilemmas that it doesn’t specifically cover.
For all these reasons, we believe that a living prophet is required to keep us in good council. We believe that the Book of Mormon works, not only to add its testimony of Christ to that of the Bible, but also to clearly explain many doctrines over which men have puzzled for centuries. We believe that God lives, that He still loves us, and therefore still speaks to those of us who will listen. This is done on a personal level - and I’m sure you have experienced such personal revelation - as well as on an organizational level - the role that, according to our beliefs, is filled by the President of the LDS Church.
The Bible contains many precious things that are revered by Mormons; it contains the life and teachings of Christ; it contains the ancient prophecies of Isaiah; it contains the eternal covenants of Abraham; it contains many other things that are true and precious. It is the word of God.
But we reject the notion that God is now a mute. And we seek after His guidance continually.
For this very reason, GreyFoxx, God’s provisions for the extension of these blessings to those who never had a chance at them is a clear expression of His love, mercy, and justice for all of His children.
“In reading the New Testament, you will find that this belief is grounded in Christianity. God speaks to me. God doesn’t need a prophet to speak to me. He answers my prayers ALWAYS.”
Indeed, we share this trait. Although sometimes I don’t like what God has to say to me...
But I do not have the authority to direct the Lord’s Church. This is what the Prophet is there for.
I realize that you reject the premise that the LDS Church is the Lord’s; but it does explain our belief in modern prophets.
“So, the unbelievers may look askance at his holier than thou attitude and grow disdainful about Romney. They may say to themselves, This is a man who received prominence in his faith system, and he believes Im damned. I dont LIKE him.”
But that’s just it. Faithful Mormons don’t say that, though I have known a couple of idiots in my day that happened to be Mormon. Romney will never EVER say to people, “I believe you are damned because you aren’t Mormon.” Won’t happen. Ever.
Who will say it to them are the people who like to spread lies about Mormons.
Will the electorate believe such people? I don’t know; but I don’t think so. The MSM and the Democrats are losing credibility year by year.
“God is VERY specific about why faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.”
So, in your belief, what happens to the Abdul Six-Packs of the world who are born Muslim, never have an opportunity to embrace Christianity, but go through their lives doing good and striving for peace?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.