They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

Saundra Duffy

[tantiboh]

Please explain, how does unorthodox Christianity threaten orthodox Christianity?

Seems to me like we’re all on the same side.

[tantiboh]

Nah, I don’t think I’d win. I’m young and inexperienced.

Still, not to point at you personally, one can still have prodigious amounts of grey matter, and it still be looney.

As for you, I think you simply have a different perspective than mine, and the two will never be reconciled. I’m alright with that. But, like you, I still think I’m right, and there’s nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.

I’d much prefer to be discussing politics, but it seems that those who would denigrate my faith are quite tenacious. What can I do but match their tenacity?

[tantiboh]

Um, me.

[Netizen]

Little was known of what they talked about until recently when it came to light that Huntington (apparently speaking for Young) told the chiefs that he ‘gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e].’ The gift ‘made them open their eyes,’ he said. But ‘you have told us not to steal,’ the Indians replied. ‘So I have,’ Huntington said, but now they have come to fight us & you for when they kill us they will kill you.’ The chiefs knew what cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher train.” (”Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West,” David Bigler, 1998, pp. 167-168.)

Lied to them and enticed them to sin.

[FastCoyote]

“Still, not to point at you personally, one can still have prodigious amounts of grey matter, and it still be looney.”

I wholeheartedly agree - genius magnifies insights, but also magnifies the errors. That’s why when someone questions my sanity, I offer real money in a bet to separate out the name callers. I have yet to find anyone who will take me up on it.

“As for you, I think you simply have a different perspective than mine, and the two will never be reconciled. I’m alright with that. But, like you, I still think I’m right, and there’s nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.

I’d much prefer to be discussing politics, but it seems that those who would denigrate my faith are quite tenacious. What can I do but match their tenacity?”

Morality is at the very root of politics - to deny the religious question is to found the political structure on sand. That does not imply everyone must convert to a true faith, but it does mean there are certain basic assumptions. Man as God steps over the line in so many fundamental ways that I cannot look the other way. Plus, I’ve seen the effects in real life by Mormon bullies who misuse their power.

[Abigail Adams]

No, unfortunately we are not all on the same side. There is absolute truth, and whatever doesn’t agree with it is not truth, but falsehood. There is no “kinda halfway truth.” If orthodox Christianity is true (which I believe it is), then anything that is not orthodox Christianity is not true but is falsehood.

If a group of people call themselves Christians, but do not believe the Bible, and add their own writings like the BOM to the Bible, and hold beliefs that are not based on the Bible, and believe in a prophet that is not in the Bible, and have a different means of salvation than that which is found in the Bible, and have a different view of God than that revealed in the Bible, etc., then it misrepresents Christianity. It also confuses people as to what Christianity is, and what orthodox Christians believe.

Jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the life. There is no other way. There is no other truth. There is no other life.

I imagine it is confusing for Mormons who are taught that they are Christians, or are taught some of the beliefs of Christianity, and therefore consider themselves Christians. Like I said in another post, Mormons don’t get to decide if they are Christians or not, orthodox Christians get to decide if Mormons are or not, and they are not, I am sorry to say.

Why do Mormons want to be considered Christians? And if you know that LDS is not orthodox Christianity, does it bother you to be “unorthodox”? By orthodox, I mean the basic, fundamental beliefs of a religion. If one doesn’t accept these, then they necessarily do not believe in that religion, but in an adulteration of that religion or in some other religion entirely.

[DelphiUser]

The universe is governed by a head god and his council. "The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world...In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, PP. 348-49).

Oh Pulease, I had these before I was 12. Who is the head God? I’ll take God the Father for all the points Alex. Who sits on the council of the Gods?Bonus round? All God’s children (that’s us).

[DelphiUser]

Does that mean that Mormons are waiting to get a clue? (grin)

Actually, we have so many, we keep trying to give them away...

[DelphiUser]

Hippolytus was a litteralsit he believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as 3 seperate beings!

So he actually believed the bible says what it says...

[P-Marlowe]

Um, me.

Who taught you that God "was a “man” on another planet who “became” God after going through a mortal test on an earth like ours?".

Is that something that the LDS Church taught you?

How did you come to that opinion?

Scripture? Tradition? A burning busom? A Doctrinal Book published by Deseret Book Company? Joseph Smith? Brigham Young? Milton Hunter?

Is there any other church on the face of the earth other than the LDS Church that believes that?

[P-Marlowe]

Who is the head God? I’ll take God the Father for all the points Alex.

So you believe that God the Father is the "head God" of the council of the Gods on Kolob?

Is that what the Mormon Church teaches?

Who sits on the council of the Gods?Bonus round? All God’s children (that’s us).

So did you sit on the "Council of the Gods" in the beginning, when "the head of the gods called a council of the gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and (the) people in it."

Were you there? Were you sitting on the council? Were you a god then? How did you vote?

[DelphiUser]

This isn't a Romney thread, this is a Mormon thread accusing us of bigotry.

CC, I respect your history, but here is some of mine. There are a few records of genealogy my mom has forbidden us to do until after she dies (sound familiar? I thought it would)

You see we are related to Governor Boggs. (yes, the guy who signed the extermination order)

She won’t put that in her genealogy. I know a bit about the persecution in Missouri. You were born and raised a Mormon, whatever your status now, you don’t qualify as a Bigot against Mormons, and I’ll defend you against any one who says otherwise.

So you are a descendent of John D Lee, and I am a descendent of Govoner Boggs, kind of gives us a weird link huh?

Cheers

[restornu]

It has always to be God plan to grant joint heirs to those who quality!

Those who qualify for eternal life are those who

(a) have been qualified by the substitute life & death of Jesus Christ; and

So you think all will be saved and received the same reward be they living a righteous life or rebellious one?

(b) trust in that substitute.

You believe all you go to do is believe and your safe!

I read the scripture and believe it mean what it says!

As for godhood, God doesn't share His throne with any of us. He shares heaven with us, which is what we inherit. But an heir doesn't work for anything left to him. It's given upon the death of the heir. In this case, we receive upon the death of Christ, and knowing Him as He is and for what He's done.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Otherwise, you're telling me that if you have a great inheritance, and you leave a will for your pet dog, you're implying that just because "you've always planned this" that this somehow = your dog being converted into a human in the afterlife.

"Heir" does not = becoming divine.

Ps 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

[tantiboh]

Thank you for your reply.

“Jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the life. There is no other way. There is no other truth. There is no other life.”

Agreed. 100%.

“Like I said in another post, Mormons don’t get to decide if they are Christians or not, orthodox Christians get to decide if Mormons are or not, and they are not, I am sorry to say.”

This statement really surprises me. To me, you are saying that you are taking upon yourself the power of Christ to say who follows Him, and who doesn’t.

I firmly believe that He retains the privilege of making this judgment to Himself. I can only hope I qualify; but you do not get a vote in the matter. Please, do not try to abrogate such authority.

“Why do Mormons want to be considered Christians? And if you know that LDS is not orthodox Christianity, does it bother you to be “unorthodox”?”

We are Christians, because we believe in, worship, and follow Jesus Christ - independently of whether or not you would consider us such.

We do not shy away from the word “unorthodox.” There are many things that we believe that flatly contradict orthodoxy; and we are not embarrassed to admit it. To be frank, many “orthodox” doctrines are extra-Biblical in nature - they are traditions, handed down by men who didn’t have any better answers. I believe that God provides better answers through contemporary revelation to His church via His prophets. Not one such conflicting doctrine has yet been disproved to my satisfaction. For myself, if being unorthodox means being closer to Christ, then I will embrace the description.

You saying I am not a Christian is like me saying you have three feet. As much as I may repeat myself, it just doesn’t make it true, no matter how many reliable sources I have telling me that it is so.

Best regards.

[restornu]

It seems you like to get carried with things that aren’t said or there!

NMHO

[DelphiUser]

Tell that to Delphi.

I answered, I thing a little more completely, but essentially said the same thing.

Sorry to disappoint you.

[tantiboh]

“Is that something that the LDS Church taught you?”

I thought we went through this already? It is not an official doctrine of the LDS Church. Given what I understand - flawed as you may view it - of the purpose of life, the nature of God, etc., it tends to make sense.

But, since it’s not a doctrine of the LDS Church, and has no significant scriptural backing, it’s pointless to argue it with you.

“Is there any other church on the face of the earth other than the LDS Church that believes that?”

Not that I’m aware of; but then, the LDS Church is unique in many ways. Still, it bears repeating that the LDS Church does not officially recognize the principle you describe as doctrine.

[FastCoyote]

[This statement really surprises me. To me, you are saying that you are taking upon yourself the power of Christ to say who follows Him, and who doesn’t.

I firmly believe that He retains the privilege of making this judgment to Himself. I can only hope I qualify; but you do not get a vote in the matter. Please, do not try to abrogate such authority.]

That is quite an inherently flawed argument and the reason we believe Mormons will spin anything. If Hitler said he was a Christian, by your logic we would have no right to cull him from the Church. God decides who gets into heaven, but we have free will to decide what is right and wrong. Myself, and many others, believe Mormons are false prophets, we would be wrong not to speak up.

Here is a counter example. You probably don’t know this but I believe 100% in the BOM and Joseph Smith. I also believe in the Satanic Bible and blood sacrifices. I want to marry your sister - tell me why you object to another Mormon marrying your sister - but remember, don’t be judgmental.

[Sherman Logan]

stop trying to prove my faith wrong.

Y'all have some issues.

I have never, unlike a good many on this thread, attacked a single Mormon theological doctrine. I happen to think some are a little odd, but doctrines generally do look odd to outsiders.

I believe every single post I have made has been objecting to attempts to deny or change historical facts to protect the reputation of "The Church," or the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon or in the service of the odd Mormon fixation on getting in on the victim as saint business by portraying their early history as one of totally unprovoked persecution like that of the early Christians.

Y'all are absolutely entitled to your own doctrines. I don't care what kind of underwear you wear (or indeed whether you wear any), and I don't care whether you think you will become Gods in the afterlife, and I don't care if your definition of the Trinity differs from that of most Christians or if you practiced polygamy in the past. We will all someday find out who's right about these issues, and I suspect all of us will find out we are at least partially wrong.

I do object to attempts to justify mass murder and betrayal, and to attempts to hide or distort historical facts to promote an inaccurate picture of past events.

I'll even give you the whole Indians as Jews business. That is so ludicrous to anyone who has studied pre-Columbian history that it is self-refuting. But there are very dangerous distortions about my history, the history of America, being promoted by some Mormons, and I will fight those.

I will, however, try to fight fair. I don't think anybody can review my posts and legitimately accuse me of attacking your religion.

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion (or doctrine). Nobody is entitled to his own facts.

[DelphiUser]

When someone makes an assertion like the following, they haven't much of a clue regarding the way the Israelis are able to use DNA to trace descendants of the twelve tribes all over the world:

The Jewish people do not assimilate people easily into their culture, so it stays genetically pure. As far as markers go.

I said”I would not expect them to be able to find anything because DNA tracking does not work that way.”

Have you gone and looked at the site we were talking about? It was written by an actual geneticist, instead you are quoting..yourself.

The poster has thus implied that the Israelis are not finding what they are surely finding because the Israeli's methods are not making a connection to Native Americans for the LDS researchers who cannot find evidence to support Joe Smith's big lie. I think we have another dancing hamster ...

You have no manners. On this forum if you are going to denigrate someone in this case, me. It is customary to ping them to the post. In essence say that to my face.

That said, the Israelis were a closed pool, comparing with another closed pool (closed pool = people who did not marry outside of their group and genetic purity is important to them.) From these closed pools, remarkable finds were made by the very talented Geneticists in Israel.

The Indians were a promiscuous genetic people, and would marry anyone and kept no record of genealogy, thus connecting anything to them is hit or miss (mostly miss) To deny valid points in an argument and then running off and have a conversation behind your opponent’s back where you congratulate yourselves on your non-victory, well smacks of cowardice.

Please prove this impression wrong.