Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
Will such duplicity never end?
Your "why?" is an insertion not in the text.
In fact, there is an apt reason why the content of Gen. 6:8 precedes the content of Gen. 6:9.
To hear your attempt to paraphrase this account, you would chronologically arrange it this way (I'll highlight a word NOT in the text to emphasize the sequence you're trying to prove): "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Noah THEN found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
So why can't you just leave the text alone minus trying to twist it around. (The very meaning of distortion is to twist?)
Let me quote it AS it's arranged: "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."
There. Grace was there at the foundation. Such grace aided His justice, his perfection among others, and and his relational walk with God. It certainly was also there for the endurance needed (and reputation hit) as he built the ark.
Now certainly if somebody wants to claim that God in his sovereignty and provision saw that Noah was going to be a "cut above" his neighbors, and He, therefore wove that grace into Noah's life...the text isn't explicit on that, but it might explain the v. 8 reference to the "eyes of the Lord." ("provision"--which means to see the need ahead of time & supply it...is a big thing in Gen...Gen 22, for example...so, likewise, God saw the need to "rescue" humanity from the violence and corruption (Gen 6:11-13) and began telling Noah specifications for the ark in v. 14.
This reminds me, how do they square not being allowed tea, coffee etc with:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
First of all, when you take God at his word and apply it, yes that's obedience, but as you're about to see, it's primarily faith. You badly need a review of pre-Abraham's life--his life as Abram:
Why? 'Cause there ya go again. Starting at the end and trying impose that as the foundation that "forced" God's hand into "having" to bless Abraham because, wow, his greatness overwhelmed God.
Let's back up, shall we? Go to Gen. 12 when "Abraham" was Abram.
Who's the initiator in this relationship, Abraham or God? "Now the Lord said..." (Gen. 12:1). God? Good
Who blessed who? Was it Abram's lifestyle up til then that just blessed the socks off of God? (LDS, BTW, may have the only God who actually wears sox since he's a man like you me + a bit of immorta-li-ty...that could be made into a song)...Or possibly, just possibly, was it God who took the initiation in "blessing" Abraham: "I will bless thee..." (Gen 12:2). God again? Good.
Who made Abram's environs environmentally-friendly vs. environmentally hostile? Now was that Abram's great neighborly skills, his character, his moral prowess that did that? Or possibly, just possibly, was it God who said: "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee..." (Gen. 12:3). God yet again? Good.
Now what is it Abram's great Brigham Young pioneer skills that landed him a land? "And the Lord appeared unto Abram and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land..." (Gen 12:7) God yet again? Good.
As for Abram's character, was he a man of truth at this early juncture of that wowed God? Let's look at the text, shall we? Well, let's just cut to the paraphrase in Gen. 12 'cause we all know how he figured his beautiful wife put his own neck at risk. So what did Abram do? Well, despite the BIG PROMISE about cursing those who curse him (a big security blanket if you ask me), he went underground as a hubby, told his wife to lie about their relationship, and frankly, didn't trust God. [Wow! I guess that kind of blows your theory about what attracted God to him in the early-going, eh?]
Still, God didn't abandon him and say, "Oops! There goes your temple recommend! God said He would be his shield (Gen. 15:1). What aspects of his faith life got him going in the right direction?
(1) He trusted God to be a pilgrim and journey "as the Lord has spoken unto him" (Gen 12:4). "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." (Heb. 11:8)
(2) "He believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen. 15:6) In other words, He trusted in God, took Him as His Word (faith), and then lived out that faith.
(3) "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac;" (Heb. 11:17...see LDS look at what a man does and say, "See, works!!!" The Bible looks at what a man does and says, "See, faith!!! Faith in action!!! Faith that takes God at His word and applies to life!" )
Now before point #3 above, he started going off-course again, when his wife convinced him to have sex with the maid. [Now that would make an interesting Hollywood movie, right?]
So up until this point, besides exercising faith in points 1 & 2, what exactly did Abraham do that was so right before all of the commendations he rec'd in Gen. 26:5? I guess the sex-with-the-maid activity kind of blows your theory about the early-going morality of this man, eh? Oh, I'm sure it's possible he took the "high road" on this one...he only had sex with the maid to fulfull God's promise, right? Perhaps. Perhaps not. (The text doesn't say...I'm sure folks like Joseph took all of the extra wives because God told him, too, right?)
Anyway, what was the result of that experience? Did God bless this "end-run tactic?" Well, folks now say that the people groups that resulted from the child born to the maid, are the folks who are now the biggest rivals to Jews and Christians: Muslims. What does the text say? "And the angel of the Lord said unto her...he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him..." (Gen. 16:11-12)...
Now God then had enough of that. He decided it was time for a sit-down, drawn-up covenant time with Abram in Gen. 17. Abram was now 90. He told Abram to "walk before me, and be thou perfect" (Gen. 17:1) So He made a covenant w/Him; ensured that his elderly wife would become pregnant (you're not going to tell me it was because of His wonderful bedroom talent that she got pregnant, are you?)
From that point on, the sinful Abram has been projected to become the patriarch Abraham. The name marks a point of conversion, where God begins to transform the man. He becomes an intercessor in Gen. 18. But was he "perfect" as instructed to be in Gen. 17:1? Hardly!!! For every step forward, there's a step back. Abraham reverts to his "wife is my sister" routine in Gen. 20 (even for an elderly wife) and God has to intervene for this patriarch, this prophet, this healer--but only a healer through praying to the God who heals (Gen. 20:17).
Even Abraham's "obedience" which was crucial to depict a Father who was giving His son as a Sacrifice, like our Father in heaven would do His Son, was billed in Heb. 11:17 as "faith"--trusting God--rather than overemphasizing "obedience" and works.
Now Abraham in the last part of his life was exactly as Gen. 26:5 reads. But that's not what "attracted" grace to His life.
Any other biblical characters that you would like to twist their life story? (Actually, you have excellent resume qualities to be a Hollywood script writer)
Does all this mean that we should eat unhealthily, breath carcinogens, destroy our liver, look trashy, or dress immodestly?
Many of the “rules” that CC mentions are nothing more than wise council. We have the Word of Wisdom, that is true, which forbids alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and caffeinated teas; but what respectable father wouldn’t tell his daughter to dress appropriately? Similarly, we are given various good-sense guidelines that help us to respect and be wise stewards of our bodies. (And remember, the Word of Wisdom was provided back when all of those things it proscribes were widely considered healthy. Coincidence...?)
Still, I know of noone who has been found “unworthy” because they eat twinkies. I’d be in trouble.
Unfortunately, CC has an impression of the Church as some kind of domineering, authoritative monster. It is nothing of the sort. Our ecclesiastical leaders give us wise council that helps us be better people in today’s world, just the same as any good minister or pastor would do. The scriptures do not say “Thou shalt not have more than one pair of earrings, or thy seed shall be cursed for three generations. Wo, wo, wo unto him that tatooeth himself!” But it’s still a good idea in our culture to be modest in appearance. It’s often a reflection of a healthy attitude and self-image and sends a message to others about one’s values. This can in turn keep a person out of all sorts of trouble.
Wanna explain the segment of the Frontline/American Experience PBS recently where they were talking about the typical LDS missionary 2-year experience? They basically said that just about every hour was "scheduled" out for them. [When you said "domineering, authoritative..." that part of that show is exactly what I thought of...]
And that’s the real problem, having enough humility to accept that the Book of Mormon is fictional. The scientific evidence is pretty clear on this. Its no more factual than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Evidence and faith are at odds with each other. They can be used to back up each other, but in a conversion unto Christ, they are at odds.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The BOM says it another way:
Either 12:
6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.
If the gospel was easy and provable, the Jews would have recognized their Messiah. Instead they mocked Him, spit upon Him, denied His miracles, and put Him to death.
But, He lives and offers us hope, if we come unto him and believe, nothing doubting.
All the best!
LOL! How so? Are you then condoning the behavior of NN?
It must be a conspiracy, the Mormons and the Mods have joined forces to thwart you at every turn. /sarc
Don’t you mean his flips? His flops have yet to happen. He moved from the left to the right, but no the other way,
Ironically, after so many threads like this one, one would assume that Mitt would be applauded, lauded, heralded, praised and pampered if he were to change his views on religion, but heaven forbid he change his views politically to ones you aspire to hold. Does this tact seem odd to anyone else?
Conservatives should be welcoming converts. It Mitt were not a Mormon, and held the views he does today, he would be heralded by the right, and unstoppable in the election. As it is, I'm not sure if he can get past the fear of his religion that so many people have.
I can name 15. See my post about Masonic POTUS.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1828301/posts?page=749#749
How many times in the passed election have you heard many say...
"I would vote for the so & so if he was Pro Life or what ever was their personal preference"?
In 1857, the Tenth Regiment or Iron Military District was composed of four battalions, nine compa-nies and approximately forty-five platoons. Klingensmith was a private in one of the platoons in CompanyD of the Second Battalion, Cedar City. Philip Klingensmith (1815-1881 or later) was born in westernPennsylvania of German and Scots-Irish heritage. He moved west to Ohio, then Indiana, where he joinedthe Mormon church. Following the arc of most Mormons, he moved to western Illinois, then to UtahTerritory. In the 1850s Klingensmith settled in Cedar City, worked as a blacksmith and served as bishop. Inthe early 1860s Klingensmith was disillusioned and moved to Nevada. He rarely returned to Utah. In1871, he prepared an affidavit about the massacre. He was among nine militiamen named in the 1874murder indictment. In 1875, following a plea bargain he turned state’s evidence and testified in the Leetrial. Later, he reportedly moved to Arizona, then to Sonora, Mexico.The sources disagree as to his death,some holding that he died violently in 1881; others, that he died of natural causes some time later.
Not necessarily, See Alma 32.
We all need a little dung now and then. ;-)
You left out taking pictures of the groom and his blushing 'possession'.
But some can have the best of both worlds, Clinton did.
Wait… that was the McDonalds Jar, not the Cookie Jar.
“Wanna explain the segment of the Frontline/American Experience PBS recently where they were talking about the typical LDS missionary 2-year experience?”
What about it? Missionaries are there for a specific task. They are taught how to use their time wisely. I find it to be an excellent life skill to know how to plan out my day.
Why are you so concerned with the minute details of how we live our lives? Why is it your concern how I choose to schedule my time?
Disagreed with answer. I think it means just what he said, that God is our Father, too and God our Father is Jesus' God, too.
Here are links to the podcast if you missed it.
More like he felt he needed to, to buy the poor scapegoat’s silence. I think its called CYA.
The one they usually show here all the time is the one about reading any good books. As soon as I see it starting I hit previous channel!
Motzeltof
Lecheium
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