Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
Ha! I voted for Jimmy Carter. I said I was sorry.
We are indeed fortunate that Heavenly Father is merciful.
Only God knows and He is perfectly capable of judging the guilty.
The vast majority of Evangelicals never heard of this. I was raised in a Baptist church: Sunday School, Sunday Morning Worship, Sunday Youth Group, Sunday Evening Service, Tuesday Boys Club, Wednesday Night Family Bible Class and Prayer meeting, every single week for 18 years.
I never heard of the "Mountain Meadows Massacre."
I went to a "Christian College" and majored in history, later taking the GRE in American History and scoring in the 95th percentile.
Still, I never heard of "Mountain Meadows."
I went on to Moody Bible Institute and did some graduate work at this "West Point of Evangelical Missions." They annually send missionaries to Utah to reach out to Mormons.
And yet I never heard of "Mountain Meadows."
------In fact, I first learned of "Mountain Meadows" at age 58, from this thread.
There may be some particular and small group of evangelicals (maybe in Salt Lake?) that are into pursuing his sort of thing, but they are not main stream and in 58 years, I've never met them.
Before you post, scan the post better of what you're responding to. I said in #1061: I do not weigh the above in isolation; a candidate's character and values, position stances on social issues, voting and public track record, etc. are also important to integrate into the entire package.
Sometimes a candidate's values, position stances on social issues, voting & public track record will betray what they are telling us about their faith. (Kind of like a certain New England gov who was pro-abortion in the mid-90s despite saying he was LDS who believed in pre-existent spirits awaiting bodies in the womb to inhabit)
In Clinton's case, he didn't even believe that life began until birth. (According to Time mag, he based that on the religious stance of his pastor) So this was a religious belief in his case.
But for too many folks around here, they would tell us not to be critical of Clinton's religious beliefs.
What fools. Wave a magic wand over any belief, designate it as sacred and therefore untouchable to criticism, and you can get away with most anything.
If the "don't criticize a candidate's religion" are consistent, then they have to compromise and say, "Well, I guess we can't be too hard on Clinton for having a religious belief that life begins at birth."
So, then, salvation is by works, and it is not by grace.
I agree with you, Cookcounty. Unfortunately, detractors of the LDS Church have a rucksack of very predictable, very worn stories, rumors, and quotes that they draw upon in their attempts to discredit Mormonism. The Mountain Meadows Massacre is one of their favorites.
I have learned over the last couple of months that the real kind of religious bigotry against Mormons, which we’ve seen displayed at times on this thread and several others, is thankfully pretty isolated. Unfortunately, those who have an axe to grind always seem to crawl out of the woodworks where the topic of Romney and his religion comes up. I see the same people on the same threads over and over again, throwing the same sets of tired accusations against the wall to see if maybe THIS time, something will stick.
As a Mormon, I feel duty-bound to refute such people (perhaps this is a mistake?), not for their sakes as much as for the bystanders and lurkers who read the misconceptions and falsehoods that they continue to perpetuate about my faith - and I admit to getting piqued at people who insist on informing me as to what I believe and why. Maybe I’m only hurting my cause by doing so; I’d like to think not, but I don’t know.
I am gratified to see more reasonable people also show up - for example, George W. Bush, MEGoody, and Sherman Logan (among others I’m sure I’ve missed) - who, while they may disagree with Mormons vociferously on theological grounds, have the graciousness to defend our right to believe as we do, grant our faith the same “grain of salt” that they’re willing to grant any other denomination, and are willing to consider Romney in light of political qualifications rather than religious ones.
I think there are a lot more people like them than like the detractors of the LDS Church.
Our detractors are right about one thing, though: that whole rucksack of half-baked criticism may be hurled at Romney if he wins the nomination. The big question is: how will the millions of people like you, who have never heard of these darker corners of the history of the LDS Church, react to such seemingly troubling news about a religion that they had always considered to be quirky at worst?
I’m an optimist; I tend to think that the electorate will recoil at such tactics, and that such a move would backfire severely on the perpetrators. Am I right? We may or may not find out. It will be a sad day for America if I am not.
Yes, and He is just.
Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
When Adam & Eve had a perfect relationship with God on earth; it was one bestowed on them. They didn't earn it. They were given it. Now when they were locked out of the garden, that was "works" in action. Distrust and lack of faith about the one tree off-limits resulted in bad fruit.
When Satan had a perfect relationship with Heavenly Father prior to our existence, it was one bestowed on him. He didn't earn "angel wings" like the "It's a Wonderful Life" angel. When he fell, he was booted from heaven. That was "works" in action: "I will be like the most High" (Is 14:14). Pride. The same kind of pride found in every LDS who wants to be a god. "I will be like the most high," they say.
You've got a twisted mindset if you think that just because an angel or a man and woman can commit spiritual suicide, thereby rejecting their living relationship with Christ, and then somehow that "proves" salvation by works.
Listen, you need to read 1 Cor. 12:3 carefully: "No one [that means no one] can say that Jesus is LORD except by the Holy Spirit." The Lordship of Jesus, even in uttering that with true sincerity, is not of you or me. The Holy Spirit gets the 100% credit. Now how is that "works" when you can even proclaim "Jesus is Lord" in a sincere way minus the operation of the Holy Spirit?
Think of the above scenario with Adam & Eve: It's only in Mormonism that the Fall...murders, rape, child abuse, incest, terrorist killings, 9-1-1, bombings, warfare, porn, abortions, is referred to in LDS theology as an "upward" one. Wanna explain why LDS believe that the Fall was an "upward fall?" Is that kind of like of the downward ascension of Satan...he fell but became a god of this world?).
[For those of who you don't know LDS theology: They believe that it was ONLY because of Adam and Eve's sin that it opened the door for men to progress to godhood. Had they not sinned; then godhood would be off-limits]
When Adam & Eve had a perfect relationship with God on earth; it was one bestowed on them. They didn't earn it. They were given it. Now when they were locked out of the garden, that was "works" in action. Distrust and lack of faith about the one tree off-limits resulted in bad fruit.
When Satan had a perfect relationship with Heavenly Father prior to our existence, it was one bestowed on him. He didn't earn "angel wings" like the "It's a Wonderful Life" angel. When he fell, he was booted from heaven. That was "works" in action: "I will be like the most High" (Is 14:14). Pride. The same kind of pride found in every LDS who wants to be a god. "I will be like the most high," they say.
You've got a twisted mindset if you think that just because an angel or a man and woman can commit spiritual suicide, thereby rejecting their living relationship with Christ, and then somehow that "proves" salvation by works.
Listen, you need to read 1 Cor. 12:3 carefully: "No one [that means no one] can say that Jesus is LORD except by the Holy Spirit." The Lordship of Jesus, even in uttering that with true sincerity, is not of you or me. The Holy Spirit gets the 100% credit. Now how is that "works" when you can't even proclaim "Jesus is Lord" in a sincere way minus the operation of the Holy Spirit?
Think of the above scenario with Adam & Eve: It's only in Mormonism that the Fall...murders, rape, child abuse, incest, terrorist killings, 9-1-1, bombings, warfare, porn, abortions, is referred to in LDS theology as an "upward" one. Wanna explain why LDS believe that the Fall was an "upward fall?" Is that kind of like of the downward ascension of Satan...he fell but became a god of this world?).
[For those of who you don't know LDS theology: They believe that it was ONLY because of Adam and Eve's sin that it opened the door for men to progress to godhood. Had they not sinned; then godhood would be off-limits]
It seems to me that you’re saying that salvation isn’t really. “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
I think that’s true.
Just FREEPmail me when you have an issue ya wanna discuss.
If you can find precedence in the holy bible of Christ of His apostles giving the priesthood to women, or women performing ordinances such as baptism, blessing the sacrament, etc, then we can have a logical discussion about this. When you find it, let me know.
The priesthood is not discriminatory, it is of God, as it was in times of old. Women have their own holy and honored callings in the Church, and compliment and support the offices of the priesthood. It’s a compatible and perfect fit.
We are ALL saved by grace xzins there is no dispute.
Works is how the Lord evaluates our reward.
Rev. 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev. 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
John 14
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also
There is a dispute. Some think we are not saved by grace. Some say so directly, and some say so indirectly.
Let’s look at what he actually said shall we. I actually found it a beautiful and love filled statement. His advice to the women in the last sentence is even better, considering all us wayward men!:
"May there be peace and harmony in your homes. Husbands, love and treasure your wives. They are your most precious possessions. Wives, encourage and pray for your husbands. They need all the help they can get. Parents, treat your children with great kindness. They are the coming generation who will bring honor to your name."
touching
All are saved by grace from hell, as long as they are not the Son of Perdition.
Oh, and BTW, unless there was another reference, he didn’t mention Sister Hinckley. You might want to double check your references before you post. ;-)
again, touching
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