Posted on 04/29/2007 6:14:12 PM PDT by SJackson
It is a bit ironic that much of modern American Christendom has become so softheaded that it takes a Rabbi to explain the teachings of Jesus to the flock.
Well I ain't Christ.
I intend to overcome evil with a bullet.
L
In my mind Schmuley frequently dances around the point, which in my mind would be that evil exists, and that Cheo has more serious forgiveness problems than the the attitudes of his victims. Murder is a crime against God, to what extent human forgiveness is an issue (I’m thinking the Amish here) for the murderer is far above my paygrade. I suspect very little. Just why the author equates recognition of evil with hate, I don’t know.
He's right about that, something that hadn't occured to me.
Might as well call him the “gun-owner”.
Wait.
Let’s not give them any ideas.
Perhaps see 43, I’m thinking his message was recognition that this, and all murders, are a crime against God as well, thus beyond the efficacy of human forgiveness. I’m a bit puzzled by the focus on hate.
Amen.
***Does God hate?****
“Your post is rather hard to follow. Are you saying that it’s ok to hate those whom God hates?”
No, it’s not quite that simple. Love and hate are not opposites, they are as impossible to separate as the poles of a magnet. Making a false dichotomy between them is the beginning of much confusion, but apart from our relationship with God, we are incapable of properly dealing with these complementary attitudes in a righteous way - - - so that left to our own devices we either end up wickedly loving who and what God hates (John 3:18-21), or becoming self-righteous vigilantes, acting out God’s hatreds in violation of his exclusive claim to vindicating Himself by taking vengeance on His enemies.
“Many are invited, but few are chosen.” [Mt. 22:14]
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.” [Mt. 7:13-14]
Since Jesus made it clear in the Gospels (e.g., the above passages from Matthew) that the “many” will go to Hell, and “few” will escape it, then it must be acknowledged that God hates many of those who die (everyone will die) and few are drawn to trust His redemptive provision for their salvation.
One also might reflect upon Zechariah 13:8-9.
“Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no god besides me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue. “To the heavens I raise my hand and swear: As surely as I live forever, I will sharpen my flashing sword, and my hand shall lay hold of my quiver. “With vengeance I will repay my foes and requite those who hate me.” “ [Dt. 32:39-41]
Your citations:
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Romans 12:18-20
are also apt, however, and show the way through this apparent paradox (it is paradoxical only for those who do not know God, both those who are warned about their condition in, for example, Matt 7:21-23, and those who simply write off the paradox as an irrational contradiction which is one more argument for dismissing the Bible).
Especially the latter passage (Rom 12:18-20) is important for illuminating the way for one who trusts God, and relies on His redemptive acts and Self-vindication. He calls on us to love our enemies, and to pray for them, and commands us to leave it to Him to map out the “rest of” these enemies’ stories (following, e.g., the pattern of King David as he refused to take personal vengeance against King Saul, even though David had been told he would replace Saul). God the Son also acts this pattern out in many ways, chiefly by going to the cross (and then rising in victory over death), but also in such teachings as the parable of the neighborly Samaritan (a teaching which appears in Luke’s gospel shortly after the account of Jesus and His followers being driven out of Samaritan settlements by the inhabitants who rejected Him and His teaching at that time).
Thus He calls His followers to subrogate their claims for vindication to Him, to cede their righteous hatreds to Him for disposition as He pleases, and for now commands them to be living messages of grace among their neighbors. However that gracious message is coupled with a solemn warning of the wrath to come:
(2 Thess 1:4-8 ) “So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”
In the operation of civil society, specific provisions are made for the civil authorities to act as instruments of God’s vengeance in the “here and now”, as set forth in Rom 13:
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained [1] of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
There is an important caution to take in applying this passage, which points to both divine authority for the civil authorities to take vengeance in God’s name and also divine accountability of government officials to match their judgment of evil according to God’s direction, but too often the passage has been used as a tool for deifying the state, attempting to argue that the state is accountable only to itself (whether in the form of a state centered in a person, such as King James and his offspring Charles I attempted to enforce with respect to themselves, or in the form of an absolutist modern state, as promoted by the secular absolutists of the ACLU who accept only “tolerant” religions, i.e., religions that prostrate themselves abjectly before the modern warfare/welfare state). An appropriate balance was argued in the English conflict over this very issue,
http://www.constitution.org/sr/lexrex.htm
which became an important pillar of the case for independence of the united American colonies in 1776:
http://puritanism.online.fr/pol_thought.html
Lex, Rex,
or
The Law and the Prince;
A dispute for The Just Prerogative of King and People:
containing
The reasons and causes of the most necessary defensive wars
of the Kingdom of Scotland,
and of their
Expedition for the aid and help of their dear brethren
of England;
in which their innocency is asserted, and a full answer is given to a seditious pamphlet, entitled,
“SACRO-SANCTA REGUM MAJESTAS,”
or The Sacred and Royal Prerogative of Christian Kings;
under the name of J. A., but penned by
John Maxwell, the excommunicate Popish Prelate;
with a scriptural confutation of the ruinous grounds of W. Barclay, H. Grotius, H. Arnisæus, Ant. de Domi. popish Bishop of Spilato, and of other late anti-magistratical royalists, as the author of Ossorianum, Dr. Ferne, E.Symmons,the Doctors of Aberdeen, etc.
In Forty-four Questions
by the Rev. Samuel Rutherford
sometime Professor of Divinity in the University of St. Andrews
London: Printed for John Field, and are to be sold at his house upon Addle-hill, near Baynards-Castle. Octob. 7, 1644.
Edited by Jon Roland 2002
I forgive Cheo, because God has forgiven me. What’s the difference between hating someone and killing them? Ones internal the other is external, and one can lead to the other.
We want to categorize these sins (crimes) ie..this is just a little white lie so it’s not so bad, but this is perjury so it’s so much worse. Gods way of looking at it is sin is sin, and there’s no difference between the two.
Well said.
Well this rabbi explained in his way but it definitely wasn’t from a Christ centered perspective. He can’t offer anything from a Christ centered prespective because he doesn’t believe in the New Testament and therefor doesn’t believe in Christ.
Are you both refering to the same God that struck down Sodom and Ghomorrah? The same God that plagued Egypt? The same God that promises to rain fire upon the followers of the Devil in the End of Days?
“Be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is Perfect.”
I don’t hold either of these to be a contradiction. The Perfection we must strive to obtain from this new information? Bloodletting only in Justice. Murder is one thing. Killing is another thing entirely.
Just as God does.
“There are those who argue that you should be willing to die, but I am not of that line of thinking.”
I’ve held since a little epiphany in middle school that a very deep vein in the Bible is this theme-
God does not wish us to take life.
Then I asked myself. “Why does he do this?”
The answer is obvious- Life is precious. It is to be protected.
And the epiphany- God does not wish for us to kill, but he knows it to be inevitable in the course of human events. Why would this be? To show us that even taking a life (as a sin) is secondary to preserving a life.
Taking lives in defense of your own (which is a gift from God) is acceptable. It shows your desire to live and therefore- your appreciation of God’s gift.
Not your enemy, but an enemy of the Lord... Yes...
NASB: Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD and so bring wrath on yourself from the LORD? (NASB ©1995)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.