Posted on 04/27/2007 9:23:05 AM PDT by drzz
True. But in all fairness one must look at the whole situation that morning. First, he was unsure about what his scouts were telling him at the Eagle's Nest. Remember, his only preceding major encounter with Indians was at the Washita. And there, the camps were dispersed. In fact, he likely was unaware of any camps other than the one he attacked.
Next, It's reasonable to assume he believed his command had been discovered. And with him being the only military entity close to being South of the supposed village, he may well have felt he needed to get in place before the village took off. Remember, he sent Benteen and his command on an excursion to the left (South) to look for other villages in that vicinity. Custer definitely didn't want come upon them from the wrong direction.
Finally, after finding the lone tepee, it appeared the village was aroused based on Indian action in his front. It quickly became evident that he had to attack or the village might just flee. He then proceeded to use his divided command in the same manner that gave him success at the Washita. This wasn't the best decision under the circumstances, but that's hindsight.
I'm not saying Custer didn't make mistakes. Pretty much everyone did on that day. But I'll never accede to the idea that one or the other (Custer or Reno/Benteen) carries all the blame.
Sorry for not responding sooner, but my cable was out for awhile.
A lot of people pin actions based on Custer's personality. I'm not convinced that's a good take. Remember, at the time of the excursion down Deep Coulee, Custer had sent a message to Benteen, and he quite likely knew Reno was in retreat. In fact, I believe it was that knowledge that prompted him to send the one wing to the middle ford.
But he's in command. And he's waiting on a wing (Benteen) that should be along momentarily. After all, Boston had arrived, likely with news that Benteen wasn't far behind. As commander, Custer would be better placed with the wing on Luce ridge so he could direct Benteen and the existing wing on Benteen's arrival. That's one major argument for not placing him in a forward position.
Yes, he was an aggressive fighter. But, and this is just my own opinion, I believe that he found out while at Weir Point just how large the village really was, that the Indians in the valley weren't running, in fact they had Reno on the run, meaning some kind of feint was called for. While that was going on, however, it would be necessary to coordinate the balance of his companies on arrival.
I don't believe there's any way that Custer, Headquarters and Company C could have been on Luce Ridge and arrive at Last Stand Hill for the finale. This fight lasted only about 45 minutes.
I shoot a 45-70 rifle and the 44-40 is no match for it. The 45-70 is more like artillery than a rifle and is good out to very long distances (1,000 yards). The most likely round that Custers men were shooting was a 405 grain bullet with 55 grains of powder which was the load used for the Cavalry at the time as the heavier 500 grain bullet with 70 grains of powder was thought to have too much recoil for Cavalry units. Still 55 grain load would have been devastating at any distance.
The 44-40 is nothing more than a pistol round and is definitely short range.
The Trap Door Springfield was an excellant rifle and although the the Bureau of Indian affairs handed out repeaters to the indians in trade for goods, the repeaters did not seem to give the indians any real advantage. The Trapdoor was finally replaced by the Krag (.30 caliber)in about 1886 or so.
“General Miles’ comment that the failure of seven twelfths of the command failing to join the fight seems to me the most pertinent comment of all.”
I believe you are right. I think that it is just that simple. Not enough guns.
You have one of the problems that I have with this battle; the timing. But in the storyline promoted by Richard Fox in his book about the excavation findings, Co. C wasn't with Hdqtrs and Custer, although its commander, Capt. Tom Custer was. I forget who second in command of Co. C was (again, most of my library is with my nephew), but Tom Custer wasn't with his company.
As I recall, Fox has Co. C with Keogh's and Calhoun's companies on Calhoun Hill. The other companies were with Custer on a venture past Custer Hill, down over the ground where the cemetery now stands and to the North ford. From there they returned to the vicinity of Custer Hill.
It was Co. C that charged a group of Indians threatening some horse holders. During this charge they were decimated and stragglers made it back to Calhoun Hill. Then the Indians in what was to become 'Henryville' began an assault on the other two companies on Calhoun Hill. Control broke down and this wing died there or enroute to where Custer was.
Custer rallied everyone at Custer Hill only to find that defensive position futile. Some died there, others (including some remaining from Co. C) tried to escape down toward the river only to be killed in Deep Coulee.
That's essentially Fox's scenario. I'm not saying I agree with it completely. But based on the excavation findings there is some practical support for it or something similar. The largest problem I have is with time (as you point out). he claims Custer waited below Custer Hill for (if I recall correctly) 45 minutes, or so. That just doesn't jive with events in the valley or at Reno Hill.
In any event, there are almost as many stories/timelines as there are devotees of the battle. What's fun is throwing all this stuff out there and having the discussion. This is great!
You're right. The 45-70 1873 Springfield trap-door model was a good rifle and lasted for around 20 years as the mainstay for both the infantry (rifle) and cavalry (carbine). In fact, it had been extensively tested before being put into the field, and was found to be the best long arm then proposed.
I have a friend who has a replica carbine. He walked the battlefield, along with then park ranger Don Ricky, in 1951. Mr. Ricky gave Gene a small number of spent bullets and cartridge cases in honor of his visit. A few years ago Gene gave me one of the Indian bullets as a gift. Accompanying it is a notarized certificate of authenticity. Note: This was before it was made illegal to remove artifacts, and it was under the auspices of the park ranger. So don't get on my case.
Agree. It's refreshing to dialog with someone who's knowledgeable about the complexities of the battle. Have you read Vaughn's With Crook at the Rosebud?
From his description of that fight... one gets a feel for what Custer's force was walking into.
No I haven't. But I do have a well-worn copy of "On the Border with Crook" by his adjutant, John G. Bourke. It is, IMHO, one of the best written contemporary volumes ever of the U S Army in the American West. I especially enjoy his description of the 'village' of Tucson at the time. Bourke brought a sense of humor to his writings.
The 1873 Colt Army Model was issued to the Cavalry with 7 1/2 barrel and was chambered for .45 long colt. A revolver in 45-70 exists but it is a massive chunk of steel.
I used to think that the Long Colt was a huge round until I started shooting 45-70. It looks quite small now.
The 45-70 is 2.550 inches long. It looks like something that comes out of the belly of a B52.
You're right on the barrel length. My mistake. I was going from memory.
I was under the impression that both arms were chambered the same. Again, my mistake.
Crazy Horse & Sitting Bull were responsible.............
but it was Bush’s fault!
From what I've read about him, he was a real character... with a pair of cajones to go along. Big Bat Pourier used to tell him to “take a note of this” every time Pourier gave a summation of the trail ahead.
There's an account of the Sibley patrol that Crook sent out after the Rosebud affair... Bourke & Pourier were in it. Check it out if you get a chance... I think it's in Brininstool's book.
—and Miles City, Montana was named for General Miles-—
Yes, he writes of it in "On the Border". He covers the entire time of his relationship with Crook, including the Battle of the Rosebud.
This has really been enjoyable; discussing a favorite topic with knowledgeable people. I'd sure like to see more of this on FR. It doesn't have to be about Custer per se, although I'd like to also discuss the Washita attack. Just about anything about the Old West excites me.
ping
I read a great book called “”Lost Triumph:Lee’s Real Plan at Gettysburg and Why it failed” by Tom Carhart with a forward by James McPherson.
In that book, the author believes and presents good evidence for, his view that Pickett’s Attack was supposed to be coordinated with an assault at the Union Rear by Confederate cavalry at that very point where Pickett was making his charge. Had that occurred, Lee would have broken the Union lines and won the battle.
AThe reason it didn’t was because of Custer and because of Custer doing the unpredictable because it went against all military logic.
Everything you are saying may be true, but a wise commander never divides his force in the face of a suprior foe - and he had to know that the force he had found was a very large one even though he didn’t suspect exactly how large, and a wise commander always checks out the enemy position and numbers before attacking.
Again, I maintain that Custer was a fighting officer, but lacked the intelligence and skill to be given an independent command because eventually his recklessness would have caught up with him.
I'm not maintaining that Custer wasn't reckless, overly aggressive or willing to defy orders if he felt necessary. And he'd divided his command possibly twice that day. But then, he'd also done that a the Washita.
I'm saying that the move down Medicine Tail Coulee (not Deep Coulee as we've alluded here) was a feint or reconnaissance. I just don't see Custer going along. But, let's agree to disagree on that point. That's what makes discussions about Custer and the Little Big Horn so enjoyable.
Agreed.
Any thoughts on the no show of Crook who ‘went fishing’ after running into trouble ?
Crook was to come up from the south ?
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