[Alabama] Militia raid targets weapons, people

Birmingham News ^ | 4/27/07 | Carol Robinson, Kent Faulk and Val Walton

[Jason_b]

"They also had pickup trucks with conservative stickers on them. Don't forget that!"

Conservative Stickers!!!??? Ohhhh Nooooo!

Seriously. Let's clarify what "anti-government" means to the government. It means this: The Magna Charta, The Constitution and Bill of Rights, The English Common Law, the Repubic, Representation in Congress, Federalism, the Bible, Christianity, that is all out the window. Your new aspiring Socialist masters are getting you ready for an authoritarian form of government in which all the rules will be made by an oligarchy of elites (probably from overseas) and the economy centrally planned complete with a state religion. It is by THIS government's frame of reference that you/we are "anti-government." In reality these groups are PRO-GOVERNMENT that is to say, pro-constitutional republic with federalism with common law government. Anytime the government calls a group anti-government they should be swiftly and sharply corrected that the group is anti-socialist-government but pro-constitutional-government.

Let's define this struggle as what it really is. A struggle between transplanted European Socialism and American Classical Liberalism for control of the government at all levels from Federal to Local. This is Civil War I happening here and now. It is so far a "cold war." 1862-1865 was just an attempt to cecede and hence not a real civil war by the proper definition.

I wish we could have been as concerned as the nation turned socialist as we are about the imposition of sharia. It is no less damaging. Just as it has been slow for us to awaken to the fact that, hey, we are at war with Islam, so we have been slow to recognize we are at war with Socialism, or at least they have been at war with us.

Because the nation is turning Socialist (the process is almost complete), that will probably make it easier for the islamists to impose sharia at some future date.

Setting aside the threat of sharia for a moment, and focusing on this CWI, I don't want to live in a totally socialist country any more than I want to live under sharia, because face it, either way, freedom will be a footnote. And I don't see all that much difference between being a dhimmi, or a "comrade" in a socialist society with a planned economy and no private property.

[Turbo Pig]

So the only crime is they made hand grenades and owned weapons.

No, that's not all. From the article;

"Recovered from Cunningham's Collinsville home were stolen commercial fireworks, improvised hand grenades, fuse assemblies ...At Hughes' Crossville home, agents found 100 improvised hand grenades, 70 improvised hand grenades fired from the 37 mm rocket launch, a submachine gun and two silencers."

I see theft and 3-4 weapons violations right there, along with the fact that at least one of them was a fugitive and another a drug user.

Yes, it is alarming to what lengths the government will go to disarm the citizens of the United States. Don't make the mistake of elevating these dumb-a$$e$ into some sort of martyrs, though. They are criminals.

Just because the government has screwed up in the past, and will again, does not excuse these people's crimes. I am a firm believer that you can maintain an effective militia, w/o breaking federal/state/local laws in the process. The time for taking the law into our own hands isn't here; even if it is approaching faster than we'd like.

[Jason_b]

"The militia, which called itself the Naval Militia at one point"

Too funny.

INFO

Let's face it. The problem with these guys is that unlike the New York Naval Militia described in the above link, they weren't recognized by the existing government. They were trying to set up a small private army. That's a no-no. And you know they imagined themselves going at it with the FEDS just like David Koresh did. And it would have been with the same result. But I'm not surprised they tried. With all the aggressive police action in this country lately, it makes anyone feel jittery and want to arm up.

Naval Militia.....Hey! I found this picture of one of them on the internet!

Defending us against flying islamists disguised as ducks.

[jonascord]

The BIG mistake is to announce to the world that you are a militia group. The ATF only likes to raid people who think that the US Constitution is a Good Thing.

CAIR, La Raza, MS-13, SPLC, all hate the Constitution, ergo, they must be left strictly alone.

[TheGunny]

Freepers are a funny folk! For all you know this guys “real” identity could be Timothy McVeigh...or what if these guys (long time citizens and patriots) were of middle eastern decent???? You’d be coming un-fricken-glued!

[EEDUDE]

They found 150 pot plants on their property per FOX news.

[drypowder]

The Gov has not changed since Ruby Ridge and Waco, they still exercise their Jack Booted Thuggery (little tin gods), at least they failed to murder anybody this time. What 2nd amendment?

[robertpaulsen]

"Well we just disagree I guess. Sounds like planning ahead too me."

They were planning ahead? For what? Planning for the day the government comes to take away their guns?

Well then, the plan was good. The execution of that plan, however, leaves something to be desired.

[jmc813]

"We classify these groups as violent and anti-government," said Jim Cavanaugh, who supervises the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operations in portions of the South. "They stockpile things and live off a fear, a paranoia they're going to need weapons and explosives because some event is going to happen when they will need them."

Hey $hithead, isn't that the whole point of the 2nd Amendment?

[DuncanWaring]

"Any time you have a self-appointed colonel or a self-appointed major ...

Suggestion to other militians out there:

Never promote yourself above the grade of "Captain".

[jmc813]

Paranoia.

Do you conssider the folks who wrote the Federalist Papers to be "paranoid"?

[eyespysomething]

ping

[SittinYonder]

Your new aspiring Socialist masters are getting you ready for an authoritarian form of government in which all the rules will be made by an oligarchy of elites (probably from overseas) and the economy centrally planned complete with a state religion.

What're you complaining about? It's for your own good.

[pepsionice]

Only my two cents. Having been to the trade day at Collinsville...there are a fair amount of hippy and Deliveriance-type characters in the region. As for these guys being threats....only if some law enforcement dude came around their pot plants...would they be terribly upset. As for all of the departments involved....it looks good when they go to homeland security and beg for a $100k check to buy a speedboat for the county police and a $15k check for the Collinsville police department to buy some additional assault rifles. I know the game...and I know how they all play it now. They aren’t real police anymore...they are simply overgrown kids with toys.

[Zeppo]

Don't make the mistake of elevating these dumb-a$$e$ into some sort of martyrs, though. They are criminals.

Well, perhaps some of them, but I'm not sure whether we know enough about the evidence to arrive that conclusion for all of them. There are at least three things from the article about this incident that give me pause:

All but Bobo are charged with conspiracy to make a firearm, which carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

That sounds like a fairly vague charge, especially since the ATF has in the past interpreted "making a firearm" very broadly, warping the meaning of a firearm beyond all recognition. Vague charges are almost always a matter of concern - the authorities just "know" that they're guilty of something, but can't quite put their finger on it, so they come up with a conspiracy charge to hold them in jail until - what - until they can manufacture some evidence of a real crime?

The second is: According to the criminal complaint, ATF and the Alabama State Fire Marshal's Office used a confidential informant to infiltrate the militia

How many times have we seen "confidential informants" being used as agent provocateurs? What things might the informant have done to push some of the suspects into committing acts that they may not have performed without that "help"? As in physics, the process of "measuring" an activity can actually affect the activity.

Finally, His red pickup truck, usually parked at the house, displays bumper stickers such as "Welcome to the South, Now Go Home," "The Second Amendment: `You do not know you need it until they come to take it away' - Thomas Jefferson" and "Work Harder, Millions on Welfare Depend on You."

How does the reporter know that? Was it in the criminal complaint? If so, why? There's nothing illegal about that.

So, pending further evidence that may come out at trial, I don't know enough to throw all of those guys under the bus. A quote such as "They stockpile things and live off a fear, a paranoia they're going to need weapons and explosives because some event is going to happen when they will need them" from a LEO is interesting, because in and of itself, that quote does not describe any criminal activity. Guess that we will find out whether all of those charged really violated the law(s), or whether only some of them did...

[SittinYonder]

As for all of the departments involved....it looks good when they go to homeland security and beg for a $100k check to buy a speedboat for the county police and a $15k check for the Collinsville police department to buy some additional assault rifles

Absolutely right. It's all about the numbers. Every department and agency needs to be able to justify their existence through statistics. We were involved in XX raids and arrested XX armed anti-government militia types in 2007. If we're going to increase these arrests, we'll need to increase our budget by, oh, I dunno, say, $1.5 million.

The raids are the perfect time for the folks not involved in any aspect of the investigation to go along for the ride and get their statistics.

[sauropod]

review

[SittinYonder]

I am a firm believer that you can maintain an effective militia, w/o breaking federal/state/local laws in the process. The time for taking the law into our own hands isn't here; even if it is approaching faster than we'd like

On the whole, I think you're right. That's the trouble with feeling sorry for folks in militias like this ... they're often covers for thieves and dope growers.

[CDHart]

"Anybody else find this case alarming?"

As a member of the Missouri 51st Militia, which is fairly inactive now, I do find this case alarming. Apparently several of them had done nothing wrong that they said. Maybe there's more to the story.

Carolyn

[verity]

How is this relevant?