Posted on 04/19/2007 3:40:22 PM PDT by SJackson
The Rabbi has to prove his case, in my view definitively given the potential for harm. Conclusive intervention in this fashion would require some form of prophesy, and likely some action against the laws of nature (which are Divine).
Reform Judaism had it’s early development in Germany, but I believe it’s first inklings in France, and developed independently in America in the early 18th century. Certainly gained critical mass in the mid 19th century in the US.
On a relative basis, the mid 20th century European population was more observant the the US Jewish population, which was largely reform.
Zionism, now accepted across the religious spectrum, was developed by secular Jews, who desired a return to the land of Israel. Observant Jews opposed the concept, as did early Reform.
As I noted earlier, more observant European Jewry was decimate in the Holocaust, American Jewry unscathed.
Should a reform Rabbi point to these facts, and state that the Holocaust was caused by observant Jews who refused to modernize religious practices, and opposed the secular return of Jews to Israel which led to the founding of a Jewish State after two millennia, I bet you’d have more to say than anything has ever happened or ever could happen that is not in some way overseen by Divine Providence. I certainly would, the concept is ludicrous.
We’re not disputing facts, I have no problem acknowledging Divine influence, rather causation. That’s a very different matter.
Comparison was to the potential impact of the statements. Katrina caused by the Gaza withdrawl, the tsunami caused by failure to support Israel, those can be dismissed. Jews were to blame for the Holocaust, that's fodder for the enemy.
I never pretend to be smart enough to know the mind of God. I missed out on all the creating-the-world bit.
But I do ask myself, “What is the recorded reason that God permitting the Babylonian sack and captivity?”
And then I look at the Reform movement.
(And I say this as a terrible apostate.)
The Talmud claims that the Babylonian exile was caused by idolatry, and by failure to observe the sabbatical laws of the land. The destruction of the 2nd Temple by the Romans was said to have been caused by senseless hatred.
There's still plenty of that going around.
Notwithstanding all warts of the Reform Movement, it is still inappropriate fror the Chief Sephardi Rabbi to state or imply that it was a cause of the Holocaust. This is one of the few times that Olmert is correct.
Don’t forget FDR, Eisenhower and Pope Pius XII.
Sure. And plenty more.
People always forget this part:
And anger of the Lord will blaze against you, and he will close the heavens and there will not be rain,
and the earth will not give you its fullness.
Lest you misunderstand, I'm no fan of Olmerde and hope he is replaced as Israeli PM sooner rather than later.
I don't know why you want to continue this argument when we have each made our positions clear and we are obviously not going to change each other's mind. But whatever floats your boat.
The Rabbi has to prove his case, in my view definitively given the potential for harm. Conclusive intervention in this fashion would require some form of prophesy, and likely some action against the laws of nature (which are Divine).
In no way does Divine Providence need miraculous interventions in the laws of nature. Perhaps you've heard of Megillat 'Ester, the whole point of which is that G-d is always at work even in the apparently natural and "random" events of history and everyday life. The fact that Purim comes one month before Pesach, which celebrates direct miraculous Divine intervention of the most obvious sort, is no coincidence.
As I noted earlier, more observant European Jewry was decimate in the Holocaust, American Jewry unscathed.
I thought you had read Rabbi Lapin's article in which he explains this. Furthermore, is it fair that Jews throughout history, including the most observant and pious, have had to pay for the sin of the Golden Calf? Nevertheless punishment for this sin continues to be meted out in each generation.
I certainly would, the concept is ludicrous.
It is not ludicrous. It is simple fact, and to deny G-d's All-Embracing Providence (Hashgachat Kelali and Hashgachat Peratit) is heresy.
We’re not disputing facts, I have no problem acknowledging Divine influence, rather causation. That’s a very different matter.
Perhaps you didn't read my statement that exactly how human freewill and Divine Providence can be simultaneously true is beyond the understanding of mere humans on this side. I don't understand your need to scientifically classify and understand these Divine mysteries that are completely over our heads.
I don't know how both are simultaneously true. I don't need to know. I only need to acknowledge that they are.
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